Discussion:
Lying Wonders and the misconceptions of so-called Believers who takes things out of Context.
Add Reply
Robert
2024-10-01 23:40:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
have a very hard time believing these verses.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and
it shall be opened unto you:

Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give
him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things
to them that ask him?

This, of course is written for those who actually have faith and believer on
Jesus and have become sons of God. Yet they claim that Satan is the one doing
miracles and lying wonders in these days. Seemingly over riding the promises
that Jesus made 2K years ago.

Then why do they Claim that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever?

Who, who is the liar here, them or God.

Now addressing their excuses made out of total ignorance and disbelief the
scriptures that they quote about lying wonders, as their excuse for doubt and
disbelief, that has hardened their hearts towards the things of God as well
as the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Here is what they are referring to, I am
including the bulk of the context in which it was written which they all
ignore the truth of it.

This is speaking directly regarding the man of Sin. The Antichrist which is
to come, whose spirit since the time of Christ Jesus, as tried to collapse
the Gospel and create doubt, strife and divisions.

This man of sin will not be revealed until after the resurrection of all
believers when Jesus comes in the air to gather us all up to be with him
forever more.

Paul is clearly prophesying here of that future day and time, and is speaking
of the time when that man of sin will take a seat in the 3rd temple an
declare V4 that he is God.

These scriptures in context will be as they were spoken. Of that there is no
doubt.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the
son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
things?

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his
time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now
letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
coming:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
pleasure in unrighteousness.
Christ Rose
2024-10-01 23:52:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700
<vdi190$2u4oq$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
Which He does:

“In Him also we have obtained an
inheritance, being predestined according
to the purpose of Him who works all
things according to the counsel of His
will,” (Ephesians 1:11, NKJV)
Post by Robert
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
This is where you go awry. God doesn't
have to overpower man's free will in
order to remain sovereign:

1) If it is His plan to delegate
authority to men, then that's part of
His sovereign plan. He doesn't cease to
be sovereign, just because He makes the
decision to delegate authority to man.

2) God uses the free-will decisions of
even those who oppose Him, in order to
accomplish His own predetermined plan:

““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)

Did Herod and Pilate and all those who
exercised gathered against Christ
exercise their free will in opposing
Him? Yes they did.

Was their free-will decision to oppose
Christ what God's purpose determined
before hand to be done. Yep.

So it's not an either-or scenario here,
where either man has a free will or God
is sovereign. Both are true. Man makes
his free-will decisions on the basis of
God's plan to allow him to make those
decisions, yet their free-will decisions
accomplish exactly what God determined
beforehand would be done.
Post by Robert
have a very hard time believing these verses.
It's not our fault you don't understand
those verses, or that you fabricate a
god that is stupid enough for you to be
able to fit in your feeble comprehension.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Robert
2024-10-02 02:02:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
“In Him also we have obtained an
inheritance, being predestined according
to the purpose of Him who works all
things according to the counsel of His
will,” (Ephesians 1:11, NKJV)
Post by Robert
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
This is where you go awry. God doesn't
have to overpower man's free will in
According to your past dogmatic statements you said he could and would at any
time.
Post by Christ Rose
1) If it is His plan to delegate
authority to men, then that's part of
His sovereign plan. He doesn't cease to
be sovereign, just because He makes the
decision to delegate authority to man.
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Post by Christ Rose
2) God uses the free-will decisions of
even those who oppose Him, in order to
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Post by Christ Rose
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
Did Herod and Pilate and all those who
exercised gathered against Christ
exercise their free will in opposing
Him? Yes they did.
Was their free-will decision to oppose
Christ what God's purpose determined
before hand to be done. Yep.
So it's not an either-or scenario here,
where either man has a free will or God
is sovereign. Both are true. Man makes
his free-will decisions on the basis of
God's plan to allow him to make those
decisions, yet their free-will decisions
accomplish exactly what God determined
beforehand would be done.
Yet all your prior claims stated otherwise.

Of course you have yet to define the word ’sovereign’ so I guess that is
the reason you never did, leaving yourself wiggle room.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
have a very hard time believing these verses.
It's not our fault you don't understand
those verses, or that you fabricate a
god that is stupid enough for you to be
able to fit in your feeble comprehension.
You now are stating a different tune than before, something very different
that what you said before, and argued against what I mentioned before about
the domain of man and freewill.

I hope you stick to these truths.

Of course you haven’t acknowledge all the scriptures you snipped out in my
OP.
Christ Rose
2024-10-03 12:32:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
Tue, 01 Oct 2024 19:02:15 -0700,
<vdi9j7$32qi0$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
“In Him also we have obtained an
inheritance, being predestined according
to the purpose of Him who works all
things according to the counsel of His
will,” (Ephesians 1:11, NKJV)
Post by Robert
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
This is where you go awry. God doesn't
have to overpower man's free will in
Note above, it says God doesn't "have
to" overpower man's free will in order
to remain sovereign, not whether God
"could" or "would" overthrow man's
decisions.
Post by Robert
According to your past dogmatic statements
That depends on what you mean by
"dogmatic". If by dogmatic you mean to
state something as an established truth,
God's word is established truth ("thy
word is truth"--John 17:17).

Would you expect a believer to present
something God plainly teaches in
Scripture, as if it were a questionable
idea rather than an established truth?
Post by Robert
you said he could and would at any
time.
"Could" and "would" are not "have to".
Did you really not know that, or are you
trying to deceive people by subtly using
different words?

1) "could": meaning God is able to
overpower man's free will. Yes, God can
overpower man's free will.

Examples:

Tower of Babel – The people sought to
build a tower to reach the heavens, but
God confused their language and
scattered them across the earth,
frustrating their plans for unity in
rebellion against Him (Genesis 11:1-9).

King Saul's pursuit of David – Despite
Saul's repeated attempts to kill David,
God continually frustrated his plans,
protecting David through various means,
including intervention by Jonathan,
David's escape, and divine confusion in
battle (1 Samuel 23:14; 1 Samuel
19:1-10).

Haman's plot against the Jews – Haman
planned to annihilate the Jews, but God
frustrated his plan by elevating Esther
to the queen's position and exposing
Haman's plot, leading to his downfall
(Esther 3-9).

Sennacherib's invasion of Judah – The
Assyrian king sought to destroy
Jerusalem, but God sent an angel to
strike down 185,000 of his troops,
frustrating his plans and forcing him to
return home in defeat (2 Kings
19:32-36).

The Pharisees’ and Jewish leaders' plans
against Jesus – Although they plotted to
kill Jesus, their plans were ultimately
part of God's redemptive plan through
Christ's death and resurrection,
frustrating their desire to end His
influence permanently (Acts 2:23; Acts
4:27-28).

It's obvious that there is no lack of
ability in God to overthrow man's
free-will efforts, when they contradict
His sovereign plan.

Job 5:12 – "He frustrates the devices of
the crafty, so that their hands achieve
no success" (ESV).

Psalm 33:10 – "The Lord brings the
counsel of the nations to nothing; he
frustrates the plans of the peoples"
(ESV).

Isaiah 8:10 – "Take counsel together,
but it will come to nothing; speak a
word, but it will not stand, for God is
with us" (ESV).

Nehemiah 4:15 – "When our enemies heard
that it was known to us and that God had
frustrated their plan, we all returned
to the wall, each to his work" (ESV).

2) "would": meaning God wills to
overpower man's free will. Yes, God
sometimes wills to overpower man's free
will.

Examples: In all the examples above, God
willed to frustrate men's plans, and had
no problem doing so.

3) "has to": meaning God is under
obligation to overpower man's free will
in order to remain sovereign. That
depends on whether man chooses to do
something which is against God's
sovereign, predetermined plans.
Frequently, God uses man's free-will
decisions to accomplish His own
predetermined purposes:

Examples:

Joseph's brothers selling him into
slavery – Joseph’s brothers intended
harm when they sold him, but God used
their actions to position Joseph to save
many lives during the famine, including
their own (Genesis 50:20).

“But as for you, you meant evil against
me; but God meant it for good, in order
to bring it about as it is this day, to
save many people alive.” (Genesis 50:20,
NKJV)

God was not obligated to overpower the
free-will decisions of Joseph's
brothers. Instead, he used their will
gainst Joseph to work a greater plan of
salvation for the world. This is typical
of His plans with Christ (below).

Cyrus the Persian king – Though a pagan
king, Cyrus freely decreed the return of
the Jewish exiles to Jerusalem and the
rebuilding of the temple, fulfilling
God’s prophecy through Isaiah over a
century earlier (Isaiah 44:28; Ezra
1:1-4).

The crucifixion of Christ – Herod,
Pilate, the Jews, and the Gentiles
conspired against Christ, but their
free-will decisions accomplished God's
predetermined plan of redemption through
Christ's death and resurrection (Acts
2:23; Acts 4:27-28).

Paul’s imprisonment – The Jewish leaders
and Roman authorities sought to imprison
Paul, yet their actions led to Paul
sharing the gospel with Caesar’s
household and others in Rome, advancing
God’s plan to spread the gospel
(Philippians 1:12-14; Acts 28:30-31).

Conclusion: It is incorrect to
categorically state that God "has to"
overthrow man's free will to remain
sovereign. God only has to do that if
man's free-will decisions contradict His
sovereign plans. In many cases, man's
free-will opposition unwittingly (from
man's perspective) accomplishes a
greater good in God's predetermined
plans. When man's plans contradict God's
sovereign will, He most certainly can
and will overthrow them.
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
1) If it is His plan to delegate
authority to men, then that's part of
His sovereign plan. He doesn't cease to
be sovereign, just because He makes the
decision to delegate authority to man.
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Note, he claims this is the "first time"
I have acknowledged that. Not only is
this not the first time I acknowledged
it, I previously used it as a point to
refute his own denial of God's
sovereignty. Considering the following
citations, are you operating here on the
basis of ignorance, or intentional
deceit?

========================================
Fri, 05 Jul 2024 11:21:13 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
3) One of your main reasons for denying
God's sovereignty, is your "free will of
man" objection. As I understand it, you
hold the view that God can't be
sovereign if man has a free will. That
also contradicts the plain teaching of
Scripture. For example, only a sovereign
God who has authority over everything,
could delegate His authority over
creation to man. If He didn't have that
authority, He couldn't delegate it.
========================================

========================================
Sat, 06 Jul 2024 21:06:26 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
In all of the objections you raise
below, none of them necessitates that
God is not sovereign. For example, if
God delegates authority to man, then
that was because it was His intention to
do so. So He doesn't cease to be
sovereign by delegating His authority.
Or again, if God chooses to allow men to
rebel and suffer the consequences of
their rebellion, then it was still His
sovereign choice to do so. He doesn't
cease to be sovereign, simply because
His plan includes allowing men to rebel
against His commands.
========================================

========================================
Sat, 06 Jul 2024 21:06:26 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
1) Whatever authority God chooses to
delegate, it's because He chose to
delegate it. When He revokes it, it's
because He wants to revoke it. In either
case, He is exercising His sovereign
will in the matter.
========================================

========================================
Tue, 23 Jul 2024 00:53:44 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
God doesn't have _some_ sovereignty, as
if He were in charge of heaven, and men
were sovereign over earth. He is
sovereign everywhere, over all things,
period. This means men only exercise
authority that God decides to delegate
to them, for as long as God decides to
delegate it to them. Since it was His
decision to delegate the authority, it
is still His sovereign plan being
executed.
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
2) God uses the free-will decisions of
even those who oppose Him, in order to
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Note his words here. He says this is the
"first time" I've "acknowledged" that
God uses the free-will decisions of even
those who oppose Him, in order to
accomplish His own predetermined plan.

This type of recurring falsehood is
exactly why I don't have to pretend like
you walk into a discussion with any
credibility as one who tells the truth:

========================================
Fri, 02 Aug 2024 20:05:43 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
sovereign God uses the
free-will rebellion of His creatures to
accomplish His own predestined plans for
“His brothers also came and fell down
before him and said, “Behold, we are
your servants.” But Joseph said to them,
“Do not fear, for am I in the place of
God? As for you, you meant evil against
me, but God meant it for good, to bring
it about that many people should be kept
alive, as they are today.” (Genesis
50:18–20, ESV)
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
You can tout your "free will" all you
want. It doesn't diminish God's
sovereignty in the slightest. Even when
you rebel against Him, it's because He
chose to allow you to do so, and because
He predestined an outcome of greater
good to result from it for His elect.
========================================

========================================
Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:59:18 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
God's sovereignty extends to the timing
and nature of events in human lives.
Individuals must approach God on His
terms. McGee illustrates this by
referencing the need to align with God's
will and timing (Leviticus 10:1-5). Even
the evil intents of people serve His
purposes, as seen in the conspiracy
against Jesus by Pilate and Herod (Acts
4:27-28).
========================================

========================================
Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:02:02 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
He even uses the free-will rebellion of
men to accomplish His greater,
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
Did Herod and Pilate make their own
decisions from their own free will? Yep.
Did that thwart God's sovereign,
predestined plans? Nope. They
accomplished God's predestined plans by
exercising their own free will.
========================================

========================================
Thu, 22 Aug 2024 18:36:04 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@christrose.news>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
3) Most importantly (as has been pointed
out many times), God's sovereignty does
not hinge on whether or not you choose
to obey Him. He remains sovereign even
when you choose to oppose His will. This
is evident in that everyone who
conspired against Christ was actually
fulfilling God's predestined plan for
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
========================================

========================================
Thu, 22 Aug 2024 12:57:08 -0500,

<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
God uses the
free-will opposition of men who
contradict Him, to accomplish His own
predestined purposes.
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
God doesn't become sovereign if and when
you decide to obey him. He will take
even your "free-will" rebellion and
accomplish His own predetermined
purposes with it.
========================================

That was only half of the references
where I previously not only
acknowledged, but stated as a point
which refutes your denial of God's
sovereignty, that God can even use the
free-will decisions of man to accomplish
His greater, predetermined plans.

Now, why do I have to keep pretending
like this denier of God's sovereignty
comes into any discussion, with any
degree of credibility as one who tells
the truth? How are you not either too
coincidentally and selectively ignorant
of reality, or too much of a willful
liar to carry on a conversation that is
consistent with truth and reality?

How much of my time must be wasted,
digging through archives, to expose this
deceiver's falsehoods, before I can
simply operate on the basis of the fact
he established, which is that he does
not operate in consistency with the
truth when he makes his false claims?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
Did Herod and Pilate and all those who
exercised gathered against Christ
exercise their free will in opposing
Him? Yes they did.
Was their free-will decision to oppose
Christ what God's purpose determined
before hand to be done. Yep.
So it's not an either-or scenario here,
where either man has a free will or God
is sovereign. Both are true. Man makes
his free-will decisions on the basis of
God's plan to allow him to make those
decisions, yet their free-will decisions
accomplish exactly what God determined
beforehand would be done.
Yet all your prior claims stated otherwise.
1) He doesn't dispute that statement,
which exposes his own denial of God's
sovereignty as a lie.

2) Every documented example that has
been cited here (Robert cited none of
his own to support his claims) shows
that I've repeatedly stated these
things. The tool now tries to convey the
notion that he finally got me to admit
for the first time, something which I've
been using all along to refute his
idiotic denials of God's sovereignty.

Conclusion: I have every sound reason to
believe this man is either too
conveniently and selectively ignorant of
reality, or too dishonest to carry on an
edifying conversation with. I firmly
believe he is a liar, based on almost
non-stop examples like these, of his own
false statements.
Post by Robert
Of course you have yet to define the word ’sovereign’ so I guess that is
the reason you never did, leaving yourself wiggle room.
It doesn't surprise me that someone who
denies God Himself is sovereign, would
also deny that a definition of what it
means that God is sovereign, has been
given:

Here is the definition he denies
exists:

https://christrose.news/sovereign

See also:
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news

All of these provide a definition of
God's sovereignty from the Bible, by
myself and five respected Bible
teachers.
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
have a very hard time believing these verses.
It's not our fault you don't understand
those verses, or that you fabricate a
god that is stupid enough for you to be
able to fit in your feeble comprehension.
You now are stating a different tune than before, something very different
that what you said before, and argued against what I mentioned before about
the domain of man and freewill.
1) You cited no evidence of any such
thing.

2) As shown above, I have cited multiple
examples of the fact I've been saying
that all along.

3) Not only that, but these points which
you now pretend you got me to finally
admit, refute your own denials of God's
sovereignty.
Post by Robert
I hope you stick to these truths.
I'm not the one who has been denying
God's sovereignty. You are. And the
evidence you now pretend like you have
finally gotten me to admit, are the very
truths I have been using all along to
demonstrate the falsehoods of your
denial of God's soverignty.

You are too detached from reality and
truth to carry on an edifying
conversation with. You waste time,
promoting self-contradicting falsehoods
and deceit, without even taking the time
to research any evidence to support your
claims. Almost everything you've said
here shows you promote stupefying
falsehoods in almost everything you
claim.

I don't have to keep pretending like you
are here to promote truth. Every
indication I have points to the
conclusion that you are a deceiver, who
will say any dumb, self-contradicting
thing he can think of, to maintain his
own denial of reality.

God is sovereign. You are not.
Post by Robert
Of course you haven’t acknowledge all the scriptures you snipped out in my
OP.
The idea that I haven't already
addressed these before, is yet another
falsehood that you promote here.

Let's look at this deceiver's verses
again, and waste some more time
entertaining his objections:

========================================
Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700,
<vdi190$2u4oq$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
have a very hard time believing these verses.
Note the stakes this deciever tries to
raise here. He's implying that if a
person doesn't join him in denying God's
sovereignty, THEY are the ones who don't
believe the Scriptures!
Post by Robert
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give
him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things
to them that ask him?
“Now this is the confidence that we have
in Him, that if we ask anything
according to His will, He hears us. And
if we know that He hears us, whatever we
ask, we know that we have the petitions
that we have asked of Him.” (1 John
5:14–15, NKJV)

See that phrase "according to His will"?
Yeah. That's it. That's the truth you're
lying against here.

The deceiver tries to free-lance verses
from the gospels, without consulting the
inspired commentary on the gospels (the
epistles), which clearly indicates that
before God answers our prayers, we have
to ask Him something which is "according
to His will".

Now, I don't know about Robert here, but
the condition of having to ask
"according to His will", kind of sounds
to me like God is the one who is
sovereign when it comes to answering
prayer. Prayer isn't you getting God to
do your sovereign will. It's you finally
accepting God's sovereign will in the
matter.

Thus, he promotes false interpretations
of the gospels, to support his desired
beliefs, even though they contradict the
plain statements of Scripture. And he
tries to make his own lies a condition
by which to determine whether or not
someone is even a believer in God!
Post by Robert
This, of course is written for those who actually have faith and believer on
Jesus and have become sons of God.
Idem. See how he tries to present his
own beliefs, which were shown to be
false, as if they were evidence of
whether or not somone even has faith in
God. It's not enough to relish your own
falsehoods alone. You have to try and
get everyone involved in your own error,
by making salvation itself hinge on
whether or not we believe in your Bible
contradicting lies!

You have to ask "according to His will",
before you can expect God to answer your
prayers. That in no way implies God is
not sovereign. It indicates He is
sovereign.
Post by Robert
Yet they claim that Satan is the one doing
miracles and lying wonders in these days. Seemingly over riding the promises
that Jesus made 2K years ago.
1) We just saw that you falsely
concluded that God is obligated to
answer prayers that are according to
your will. On the contrary. You are
required to pray according to God's
will, before you get an answer to
prayer.

How many times has this deceiver seen
Jesus praying, "not my will, but thine
be done"? God Himself subjected Himself
to God the Father's sovereign will in
answering prayer.

Yet Robert deludes himself with the idea
that He's got control over God. God has
to do what he asks, he reasons. No, God
does not have to do what you ask, unless
you first submit yourself to His
sovereign will! If we ask "according to
His will", THEN He answers with HIS will
being done.

2) Jesus made no promises of perpetual
miracles and wonders in the church. They
were required to validate Jesus as the
Messiah, to fulfill God's prophecy about
testifying to Israel by people of a
strange tongue, and to confirm the
gospel message the disciples proclaimed.
All of that has been "confirmed"
(Hebrews 2:3-4), and the signs and
wonders done by God faded out by the end
of Paul's ministry.

For 15 Bible evidences that the signs
and wonders God was doing have ceased,
see here:

https://christrose.news/sign-cessation
Post by Robert
Then why do they Claim that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
This objection has also been answered
repeatedly. I do not have to pretend it
has not.

========================================
Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:21:53 -0500,

<***@4ax.com>
Christ Rose
<***@invalid.invalid> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Thus God is God and He changes not, oh ye of little faith.
He IS the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Another idiotic misrepresentation about
God. While God's character does not
change, His stewardship dealings with
men have changed regularly, throughout
History. This is why we don't offer
animal sacrifices today, and why
doctrinal integrity according to the
Bible, not signs and wonders, is stated
to be the test of authenticity for those
who proclaim God's word (2 John 9-11).
========================================

========================================
Thu, 02 Nov 2023 13:41:40 -0500,

<***@4ax.com>
Christ Rose
<***@invalid.invalid> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Jesus the Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. Blessed be His Name.
Although God never changes, His
stewardship relationships with men do
change. That's why we're not currently
offering animal sacrifices for our sins,
but relying on the once-for-all
atonement Christ made. Robert is a
clueless tool who fabricates his own
doctrines out of thin air, and confuses
one teaching with another, to weave what
he wants to believe.
========================================
Post by Robert
Who, who is the liar here, them or God.
You, for trying to equate your lie that
if God doesn't change, then his
stewardships towards man cannot change
either, with truth. It is not. We are
not living under the ceremonial laws,
simply because God never changes.
Likewise, the Law was not introduced in
the first place, because God changed.
God's differing economies are part of
God's unchanging plans to test man under
a variety of stewardships, to
consistently point them (in their falure
to meet those stewardship requirements)
to their need Christ for Christ as
Savior.
Post by Robert
Now addressing their excuses made out of total ignorance and disbelief the
scriptures that they quote about lying wonders, as their excuse for doubt and
disbelief, that has hardened their hearts towards the things of God as well
as the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We just saw that the promises he tried
to use about prayer were all contingent
on whether one prays "according to His
will". Thus, all of his accusations here
in this paragraph are based on his own
ignorant, erroneous, and false premise
that God has to do what Robert wants Him
to do when Robert prays. On the
contrary. Prayer is not you (Robert)
getting God to do your will, but God
getting you to accept His will in the
matter.
Post by Robert
Here is what they are referring to, I am
including the bulk of the context in which it was written which they all
ignore the truth of it.
We just saw you ignore the truth that
prayer must be "according to His will",
not yours. We know that even Jesus
Himself always prayed "not my will, but
thine be done", to the Father.
Post by Robert
This is speaking directly regarding the man of Sin. The Antichrist which is
to come, whose spirit since the time of Christ Jesus, as tried to collapse
the Gospel and create doubt, strife and divisions.
This man of sin will not be revealed until after the resurrection of all
believers when Jesus comes in the air to gather us all up to be with him
forever more.
Paul is clearly prophesying here of that future day and time, and is speaking
of the time when that man of sin will take a seat in the 3rd temple an
declare V4 that he is God.
These scriptures in context will be as they were spoken. Of that there is no
doubt.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the
son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his
time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now
letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
pleasure in unrighteousness.
That _these_ specific false signs and
lying wonders will occur in the future,
doesn't mean that until that time,
anyone claiming to do signs and wonders
must automatically be regarded as
performing genuine signs and wonders.

That's why you can't show us any footage
of signs and wonders happening today.
You've lied claiming to produce such
evidence, such as in your claim that the
current revival in the Amazon had "signs
following" it. No evidence of any such
claim or any such footage was made in
the video where you claimed the signs
and wonders were "following" today.

I've considered many videos you showed
in an effort to support such claims, and
all of them turned out to show no such
thing.

Meanwhile, 15 Bible evidences convince
me that Charismatics are claiming false
signs and lying wonders today:

https://christrose.news/sign-cessation

Everything in this article you have
posted here, Robert, convinces me that
you're a self-deceived liar, who wastes
people's time repeating claims which
have already been shown to be false.

In no way does this ongoing pattern
require me to keep spending hours
researching and demonstrating again and
again, that you make false claims about
what others say, and about what the
Bible itself teaches.

I am not obligated, in the face of this
ongoing pattern, to pretend like you
walk into any discussion with automatic
credibility as one who speaks the truth.
I know you to promote dumb,
self-contradicting, Bible-contradicting,
and idiotic lies on a regular basis.

I am not obligated to treat every claim
and objection you make, as if it
deserves the time to be proved false.
You would have to admit to many, many
errors and falsehoods, then also
establish yourself as one who is honest
and truthful in a long pattern of
articles and responses, before you would
deserve to be treated like someone who
isn't a lying troll.

For that reason, I may spare myself the
agony of responding to every claim you
make, as if it requires a response or
refutation, and simply refer people to
this article. You've used up your
credibility with me, and you've wasted
way too much of my time already, with
your nonsense and lies.

========================================


--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Robert
2024-10-03 18:51:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Tue, 01 Oct 2024 19:02:15 -0700,
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
“In Him also we have obtained an
inheritance, being predestined according
to the purpose of Him who works all
things according to the counsel of His
will,” (Ephesians 1:11, NKJV)
Post by Robert
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
This is where you go awry. God doesn't
have to overpower man's free will in
Note above, it says God doesn't "have
to" overpower man's free will in order
to remain sovereign, not whether God
"could" or "would" overthrow man's
decisions.
How can you determine that not knowing what Sovereign means?
You have not defined it yet. Therefore you cannot know what the word means.
Perhaps you would be best served to select another word to replace it,
How can a sovereign being be thwarted? Why and how was there a rebellion in
heaven?
Did God design Lucifer to try and usurp His power? If so, for what purpose?

Look carefully at Babel, and the power of mankind and what the Lord said
about that.

Gen 11:6-8

6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one
language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from
them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not
understand one another's speech.

8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the
earth: and they left off to build the city.

V6 Explains a lot about a variety of things, but the big thing pointed out
here is when mankind operates as “one” who is to restrain them? Also, who
is the “us”?
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
According to your past dogmatic statements
That depends on what you mean by
"dogmatic". If by dogmatic you mean to
state something as an established truth,
God's word is established truth ("thy
word is truth"--John 17:17).
Would you expect a believer to present
something God plainly teaches in
Scripture, as if it were a questionable
idea rather than an established truth?
Why don’t you ask if you do not know? Without knowledge you assumptions are
vain and fruitless.

Whose dogmatic statements was I speaking of? Yours.
For instance, take your last paragraph, your assumption that you are saying
things correctly when many disagree with you, and often times even the local
context disproves what you decree. Then you persist in parroting that dogma
over and over again, and assume that all should agree with you and thus you
made a web site devoted to your dogma’s and doctrines.

The Heavenly Father is able to do that, not you. And where is your peer
reviews? Where are the signs and wonders following that would make you
believe that you could “outPaul” Paul?

For this reason one is to let the other judge to see if it is of God, or not.

Yes, this seems harsh to you, you might even be sincere it what you think you
are doing, but where is any sense of humility? Take stock of yourself
according to scripture and then determine who you seek to follow. God, or
your self righteous self.

Yes, this applies to everyone including myself.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
you said he could and would at any
time.
"Could" and "would" are not "have to".
Did you really not know that, or are you
trying to deceive people by subtly using
different words?
Hear you are, parsing words, taking sound bites out of a complete thought,
seeking to destroy the thought obfuscate it, and shift the goal posts like
you did in your first reply where you totally ignored the scripture of the OP
and shift it here and then again with this bit parsing.

Judas went and hung himself,....go thou and do likewise.

That is a semblance of what you are attempting to do.
Post by Christ Rose
1) "could": meaning God is able to
overpower man's free will. Yes, God can
overpower man's free will.
Not at all, God is a God of his word. God would not disagree with Himself and
force a being to think as He wants them to think and do. How can a man have
faith in a being of your description?
Post by Christ Rose
Tower of Babel – The people sought to
build a tower to reach the heavens, but
God confused their language and
scattered them across the earth,
frustrating their plans for unity in
rebellion against Him (Genesis 11:1-9).
But he did not change their thoughts, their desires, he did not force them to
do things His way. Strange, I wrote about that at the beginning of this post.
He didn’t frustrate their plans, just made it impossible for a time to
communicate with each other.
Post by Christ Rose
King Saul's pursuit of David – Despite
Saul's repeated attempts to kill David,
God continually frustrated his plans,
protecting David through various means,
including intervention by Jonathan,
David's escape, and divine confusion in
battle (1 Samuel 23:14; 1 Samuel
19:1-10).
Yet Saul still lived and died thinking as he did when he started opposing the
will of God.
Saul knew that David was to be King. How many times was David close enough to
Saul to kill him, yet he did not, why was that? Did God frustrate David as
well?

What battle? There was no confusion during battle in either of those
scriptures you referenced.
Post by Christ Rose
Haman's plot against the Jews – Haman
planned to annihilate the Jews, but God
frustrated his plan by elevating Esther
to the queen's position and exposing
Haman's plot, leading to his downfall
(Esther 3-9).
Yet Haman remains true to his freewill. God did not change his heart, nor
Saul’s, Neither was forced to do something which was against their
freewill.
Post by Christ Rose
Sennacherib's invasion of Judah – The
Assyrian king sought to destroy
Jerusalem, but God sent an angel to
strike down 185,000 of his troops,
frustrating his plans and forcing him to
return home in defeat (2 Kings
19:32-36).
But whose mind and purpose did God override and make then change them change
their mind and their ways? Nothing here in all the scenarios you laid out
shows where God made the person themselves change and robotically follow the
will of God. And that is what you said he would and could do.

Where was anyones freewill and mindset changed whether they liked it or not?
Post by Christ Rose
The Pharisees’ and Jewish leaders' plans
against Jesus – Although they plotted to
kill Jesus, their plans were ultimately
part of God's redemptive plan through
Christ's death and resurrection,
frustrating their desire to end His
influence permanently (Acts 2:23; Acts
4:27-28).
It's obvious that there is no lack of
ability in God to overthrow man's
free-will efforts, when they contradict
His sovereign plan.
Really? If His plans were sovereign then why didn’t everything happen on
the time schedule of His choosing? How many times in the Bible did God delay
destructions and or events. A sovereign being says this is what is going to
be, and how it will be, and there will be no slack given.

Your sloppy arguments vary, as you have no understanding or guideline to
follow as to what is the meaning of Sovereign. You play games to allow
yourself wiggle room to fluctuate according to your thoughts of the day. That
is not fair to you or anyone, as there is no path or truth to follow.
Post by Christ Rose
Job 5:12 – "He frustrates the devices of
the crafty, so that their hands achieve
no success" (ESV).
He “breaks” the devices of the crafty” is the proper translation.
Post by Christ Rose
Psalm 33:10 – "The Lord brings the
counsel of the nations to nothing; he
frustrates the plans of the peoples"
(ESV).
Isaiah 8:10 – "Take counsel together,
but it will come to nothing; speak a
word, but it will not stand, for God is
with us" (ESV).
Nehemiah 4:15 – "When our enemies heard
that it was known to us and that God had
frustrated their plan, we all returned
to the wall, each to his work" (ESV).
2) "would": meaning God wills to
overpower man's free will. Yes, God
sometimes wills to overpower man's free
will.
Not within the man itself. Just look at your own personal own freewill to NOT
love the brethren or your brother. Has God removed or disallowed your free
will? And the more you resist it, the more your heart is hardened.

A sovereign being would at all times in every manner be sovereign.

Carry that thinking out and there would be no reason for Christ to die for
the sins of men, as he being in such tight control would just disallow sin.
As well as your right to sin, after all, that is what you are attempting to
say.

So what is the definition of Sovereign?
Post by Christ Rose
Examples: In all the examples above, God
willed to frustrate men's plans, and had
no problem doing so.
The word “frustrate” was not the correct word to use in most of those
cases.

God is able to ... “And we know that all things work together for good to
them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”
(Rom 8:28)

If He acted sovereignly all along, there there would be no situation that he
would be required to correct, or change the course of. Nothing would get out
of hand in the first place.

So again, what is the definition of Sovereign?

You can keep on surmising and throwing stuff up on the wall to find something
that sticks, but you cannot find truth or understandings in that fashion.

I know for a fact that I have in the past done things that were opposed to
the will of God, most unknowingly, yet I was accountable for all of them.
Thanks to His grace and mercy I was delivered from them all. In some
instances I kept banging my head against a wall, determined that things go my
way, until it just became too costly for me to continue on that path. I could
have kept on in my ways, but at what cost?

As it turns out one realizes via wisdom or the college of hard knocks, that
it is best to go with the flow, in my case to yield to God and allow him to
be the Master of my life. To yield myself to him and his ways, and to be
humble before him, willingly. Having learned that his ways are the best ways,
and a byproduct of all that is that I have a much better life in him.

A sovereign being would never have allowed me or anyone to go outside of his
will. And God being the wisest of all knows that if he controlled all things
according to his will in the nth degree, then how would he know who is
willing to love him and do His will with all their heart? And who is doing it
grudgingly and without Love, dwelling in fear that they loathe to be in. And
like a snake are just waiting to destroy their sovereign ruler.

Sure one can argue that he sees and knows the thoughts of man. And he could
then just destroy those who secretly are doing things out of fear and
loathing in order to purify all things, but what are the others going to say
when they see God seemingly just killing and destroying or condemning people
to hell, when everything others see on the surface is that the person was
doing all that God demanded of them.

If you ever were in a position of authority over others, then you should
understand that quite well.

So what is the definition of Sovereign.

Let us all know, and then I will continue if need be.
And if you think I short sheeted what you posted, then remember that this
thread you totally ignored what the thread was all about.
Post by Christ Rose
3) "has to": meaning God is under
obligation to overpower man's free will
in order to remain sovereign. That
depends on whether man chooses to do
something which is against God's
sovereign, predetermined plans.
Frequently, God uses man's free-will
decisions to accomplish His own
Joseph's brothers selling him into
slavery – Joseph’s brothers intended
harm when they sold him, but God used
their actions to position Joseph to save
many lives during the famine, including
their own (Genesis 50:20).
“But as for you, you meant evil against
me; but God meant it for good, in order
to bring it about as it is this day, to
save many people alive.” (Genesis 50:20,
NKJV)
God was not obligated to overpower the
free-will decisions of Joseph's
brothers. Instead, he used their will
gainst Joseph to work a greater plan of
salvation for the world. This is typical
of His plans with Christ (below).
Cyrus the Persian king – Though a pagan
king, Cyrus freely decreed the return of
the Jewish exiles to Jerusalem and the
rebuilding of the temple, fulfilling
God’s prophecy through Isaiah over a
century earlier (Isaiah 44:28; Ezra
1:1-4).
The crucifixion of Christ – Herod,
Pilate, the Jews, and the Gentiles
conspired against Christ, but their
free-will decisions accomplished God's
predetermined plan of redemption through
Christ's death and resurrection (Acts
2:23; Acts 4:27-28).
Paul’s imprisonment – The Jewish leaders
and Roman authorities sought to imprison
Paul, yet their actions led to Paul
sharing the gospel with Caesar’s
household and others in Rome, advancing
God’s plan to spread the gospel
(Philippians 1:12-14; Acts 28:30-31).
Conclusion: It is incorrect to
categorically state that God "has to"
overthrow man's free will to remain
sovereign. God only has to do that if
man's free-will decisions contradict His
sovereign plans. In many cases, man's
free-will opposition unwittingly (from
man's perspective) accomplishes a
greater good in God's predetermined
plans. When man's plans contradict God's
sovereign will, He most certainly can
and will overthrow them.
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
1) If it is His plan to delegate
authority to men, then that's part of
His sovereign plan. He doesn't cease to
be sovereign, just because He makes the
decision to delegate authority to man.
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Note, he claims this is the "first time"
I have acknowledged that. Not only is
this not the first time I acknowledged
it, I previously used it as a point to
refute his own denial of God's
sovereignty. Considering the following
citations, are you operating here on the
basis of ignorance, or intentional
deceit?
========================================
Fri, 05 Jul 2024 11:21:13 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
3) One of your main reasons for denying
God's sovereignty, is your "free will of
man" objection. As I understand it, you
hold the view that God can't be
sovereign if man has a free will. That
also contradicts the plain teaching of
Scripture. For example, only a sovereign
God who has authority over everything,
could delegate His authority over
creation to man. If He didn't have that
authority, He couldn't delegate it.
========================================
========================================
Sat, 06 Jul 2024 21:06:26 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
In all of the objections you raise
below, none of them necessitates that
God is not sovereign. For example, if
God delegates authority to man, then
that was because it was His intention to
do so. So He doesn't cease to be
sovereign by delegating His authority.
Or again, if God chooses to allow men to
rebel and suffer the consequences of
their rebellion, then it was still His
sovereign choice to do so. He doesn't
cease to be sovereign, simply because
His plan includes allowing men to rebel
against His commands.
========================================
========================================
Sat, 06 Jul 2024 21:06:26 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
1) Whatever authority God chooses to
delegate, it's because He chose to
delegate it. When He revokes it, it's
because He wants to revoke it. In either
case, He is exercising His sovereign
will in the matter.
========================================
========================================
Tue, 23 Jul 2024 00:53:44 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
God doesn't have _some_ sovereignty, as
if He were in charge of heaven, and men
were sovereign over earth. He is
sovereign everywhere, over all things,
period. This means men only exercise
authority that God decides to delegate
to them, for as long as God decides to
delegate it to them. Since it was His
decision to delegate the authority, it
is still His sovereign plan being
executed.
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
2) God uses the free-will decisions of
even those who oppose Him, in order to
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Note his words here. He says this is the
"first time" I've "acknowledged" that
God uses the free-will decisions of even
those who oppose Him, in order to
accomplish His own predetermined plan.
This type of recurring falsehood is
exactly why I don't have to pretend like
you walk into a discussion with any
========================================
Fri, 02 Aug 2024 20:05:43 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
sovereign God uses the
free-will rebellion of His creatures to
accomplish His own predestined plans for
“His brothers also came and fell down
before him and said, “Behold, we are
your servants.” But Joseph said to them,
“Do not fear, for am I in the place of
God? As for you, you meant evil against
me, but God meant it for good, to bring
it about that many people should be kept
alive, as they are today.” (Genesis
50:18–20, ESV)
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
You can tout your "free will" all you
want. It doesn't diminish God's
sovereignty in the slightest. Even when
you rebel against Him, it's because He
chose to allow you to do so, and because
He predestined an outcome of greater
good to result from it for His elect.
========================================
========================================
Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:59:18 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
God's sovereignty extends to the timing
and nature of events in human lives.
Individuals must approach God on His
terms. McGee illustrates this by
referencing the need to align with God's
will and timing (Leviticus 10:1-5). Even
the evil intents of people serve His
purposes, as seen in the conspiracy
against Jesus by Pilate and Herod (Acts
4:27-28).
========================================
========================================
Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:02:02 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
He even uses the free-will rebellion of
men to accomplish His greater,
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
Did Herod and Pilate make their own
decisions from their own free will? Yep.
Did that thwart God's sovereign,
predestined plans? Nope. They
accomplished God's predestined plans by
exercising their own free will.
========================================
========================================
Thu, 22 Aug 2024 18:36:04 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
3) Most importantly (as has been pointed
out many times), God's sovereignty does
not hinge on whether or not you choose
to obey Him. He remains sovereign even
when you choose to oppose His will. This
is evident in that everyone who
conspired against Christ was actually
fulfilling God's predestined plan for
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
========================================
========================================
Thu, 22 Aug 2024 12:57:08 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
God uses the
free-will opposition of men who
contradict Him, to accomplish His own
predestined purposes.
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
God doesn't become sovereign if and when
you decide to obey him. He will take
even your "free-will" rebellion and
accomplish His own predetermined
purposes with it.
========================================
That was only half of the references
where I previously not only
acknowledged, but stated as a point
which refutes your denial of God's
sovereignty, that God can even use the
free-will decisions of man to accomplish
His greater, predetermined plans.
Now, why do I have to keep pretending
like this denier of God's sovereignty
comes into any discussion, with any
degree of credibility as one who tells
the truth? How are you not either too
coincidentally and selectively ignorant
of reality, or too much of a willful
liar to carry on a conversation that is
consistent with truth and reality?
How much of my time must be wasted,
digging through archives, to expose this
deceiver's falsehoods, before I can
simply operate on the basis of the fact
he established, which is that he does
not operate in consistency with the
truth when he makes his false claims?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
Did Herod and Pilate and all those who
exercised gathered against Christ
exercise their free will in opposing
Him? Yes they did.
Was their free-will decision to oppose
Christ what God's purpose determined
before hand to be done. Yep.
So it's not an either-or scenario here,
where either man has a free will or God
is sovereign. Both are true. Man makes
his free-will decisions on the basis of
God's plan to allow him to make those
decisions, yet their free-will decisions
accomplish exactly what God determined
beforehand would be done.
Yet all your prior claims stated otherwise.
1) He doesn't dispute that statement,
which exposes his own denial of God's
sovereignty as a lie.
2) Every documented example that has
been cited here (Robert cited none of
his own to support his claims) shows
that I've repeatedly stated these
things. The tool now tries to convey the
notion that he finally got me to admit
for the first time, something which I've
been using all along to refute his
idiotic denials of God's sovereignty.
Conclusion: I have every sound reason to
believe this man is either too
conveniently and selectively ignorant of
reality, or too dishonest to carry on an
edifying conversation with. I firmly
believe he is a liar, based on almost
non-stop examples like these, of his own
false statements.
Post by Robert
Of course you have yet to define the word ’sovereign’ so I guess that is
the reason you never did, leaving yourself wiggle room.
It doesn't surprise me that someone who
denies God Himself is sovereign, would
also deny that a definition of what it
means that God is sovereign, has been
Here is the definition he denies
https://christrose.news/sovereign
All of these provide a definition of
God's sovereignty from the Bible, by
myself and five respected Bible
teachers.
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
have a very hard time believing these verses.
It's not our fault you don't understand
those verses, or that you fabricate a
god that is stupid enough for you to be
able to fit in your feeble comprehension.
You now are stating a different tune than before, something very different
that what you said before, and argued against what I mentioned before about
the domain of man and freewill.
1) You cited no evidence of any such
thing.
2) As shown above, I have cited multiple
examples of the fact I've been saying
that all along.
3) Not only that, but these points which
you now pretend you got me to finally
admit, refute your own denials of God's
sovereignty.
Post by Robert
I hope you stick to these truths.
I'm not the one who has been denying
God's sovereignty. You are. And the
evidence you now pretend like you have
finally gotten me to admit, are the very
truths I have been using all along to
demonstrate the falsehoods of your
denial of God's soverignty.
You are too detached from reality and
truth to carry on an edifying
conversation with. You waste time,
promoting self-contradicting falsehoods
and deceit, without even taking the time
to research any evidence to support your
claims. Almost everything you've said
here shows you promote stupefying
falsehoods in almost everything you
claim.
I don't have to keep pretending like you
are here to promote truth. Every
indication I have points to the
conclusion that you are a deceiver, who
will say any dumb, self-contradicting
thing he can think of, to maintain his
own denial of reality.
God is sovereign. You are not.
Post by Robert
Of course you haven’t acknowledge all the scriptures you snipped out in my
OP.
The idea that I haven't already
addressed these before, is yet another
falsehood that you promote here.
Let's look at this deceiver's verses
again, and waste some more time
========================================
Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700,
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
have a very hard time believing these verses.
Note the stakes this deciever tries to
raise here. He's implying that if a
person doesn't join him in denying God's
sovereignty, THEY are the ones who don't
believe the Scriptures!
Post by Robert
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give
him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things
to them that ask him?
“Now this is the confidence that we have
in Him, that if we ask anything
according to His will, He hears us. And
if we know that He hears us, whatever we
ask, we know that we have the petitions
that we have asked of Him.” (1 John
5:14–15, NKJV)
See that phrase "according to His will"?
Yeah. That's it. That's the truth you're
lying against here.
The deceiver tries to free-lance verses
from the gospels, without consulting the
inspired commentary on the gospels (the
epistles), which clearly indicates that
before God answers our prayers, we have
to ask Him something which is "according
to His will".
Now, I don't know about Robert here, but
the condition of having to ask
"according to His will", kind of sounds
to me like God is the one who is
sovereign when it comes to answering
prayer. Prayer isn't you getting God to
do your sovereign will. It's you finally
accepting God's sovereign will in the
matter.
Thus, he promotes false interpretations
of the gospels, to support his desired
beliefs, even though they contradict the
plain statements of Scripture. And he
tries to make his own lies a condition
by which to determine whether or not
someone is even a believer in God!
Post by Robert
This, of course is written for those who actually have faith and believer on
Jesus and have become sons of God.
Idem. See how he tries to present his
own beliefs, which were shown to be
false, as if they were evidence of
whether or not somone even has faith in
God. It's not enough to relish your own
falsehoods alone. You have to try and
get everyone involved in your own error,
by making salvation itself hinge on
whether or not we believe in your Bible
contradicting lies!
You have to ask "according to His will",
before you can expect God to answer your
prayers. That in no way implies God is
not sovereign. It indicates He is
sovereign.
Post by Robert
Yet they claim that Satan is the one doing
miracles and lying wonders in these days. Seemingly over riding the promises
that Jesus made 2K years ago.
1) We just saw that you falsely
concluded that God is obligated to
answer prayers that are according to
your will. On the contrary. You are
required to pray according to God's
will, before you get an answer to
prayer.
How many times has this deceiver seen
Jesus praying, "not my will, but thine
be done"? God Himself subjected Himself
to God the Father's sovereign will in
answering prayer.
Yet Robert deludes himself with the idea
that He's got control over God. God has
to do what he asks, he reasons. No, God
does not have to do what you ask, unless
you first submit yourself to His
sovereign will! If we ask "according to
His will", THEN He answers with HIS will
being done.
2) Jesus made no promises of perpetual
miracles and wonders in the church. They
were required to validate Jesus as the
Messiah, to fulfill God's prophecy about
testifying to Israel by people of a
strange tongue, and to confirm the
gospel message the disciples proclaimed.
All of that has been "confirmed"
(Hebrews 2:3-4), and the signs and
wonders done by God faded out by the end
of Paul's ministry.
For 15 Bible evidences that the signs
and wonders God was doing have ceased,
https://christrose.news/sign-cessation
Post by Robert
Then why do they Claim that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
This objection has also been answered
repeatedly. I do not have to pretend it
has not.
========================================
Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:21:53 -0500,
Christ Rose
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Thus God is God and He changes not, oh ye of little faith.
He IS the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Another idiotic misrepresentation about
God. While God's character does not
change, His stewardship dealings with
men have changed regularly, throughout
History. This is why we don't offer
animal sacrifices today, and why
doctrinal integrity according to the
Bible, not signs and wonders, is stated
to be the test of authenticity for those
who proclaim God's word (2 John 9-11).
========================================
========================================
Thu, 02 Nov 2023 13:41:40 -0500,
Christ Rose
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Jesus the Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. Blessed be His Name.
Although God never changes, His
stewardship relationships with men do
change. That's why we're not currently
offering animal sacrifices for our sins,
but relying on the once-for-all
atonement Christ made. Robert is a
clueless tool who fabricates his own
doctrines out of thin air, and confuses
one teaching with another, to weave what
he wants to believe.
========================================
Post by Robert
Who, who is the liar here, them or God.
You, for trying to equate your lie that
if God doesn't change, then his
stewardships towards man cannot change
either, with truth. It is not. We are
not living under the ceremonial laws,
simply because God never changes.
Likewise, the Law was not introduced in
the first place, because God changed.
God's differing economies are part of
God's unchanging plans to test man under
a variety of stewardships, to
consistently point them (in their falure
to meet those stewardship requirements)
to their need Christ for Christ as
Savior.
Post by Robert
Now addressing their excuses made out of total ignorance and disbelief the
scriptures that they quote about lying wonders, as their excuse for doubt and
disbelief, that has hardened their hearts towards the things of God as well
as the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We just saw that the promises he tried
to use about prayer were all contingent
on whether one prays "according to His
will". Thus, all of his accusations here
in this paragraph are based on his own
ignorant, erroneous, and false premise
that God has to do what Robert wants Him
to do when Robert prays. On the
contrary. Prayer is not you (Robert)
getting God to do your will, but God
getting you to accept His will in the
matter.
Post by Robert
Here is what they are referring to, I am
including the bulk of the context in which it was written which they all
ignore the truth of it.
We just saw you ignore the truth that
prayer must be "according to His will",
not yours. We know that even Jesus
Himself always prayed "not my will, but
thine be done", to the Father.
Post by Robert
This is speaking directly regarding the man of Sin. The Antichrist which is
to come, whose spirit since the time of Christ Jesus, as tried to collapse
the Gospel and create doubt, strife and divisions.
This man of sin will not be revealed until after the resurrection of all
believers when Jesus comes in the air to gather us all up to be with him
forever more.
Paul is clearly prophesying here of that future day and time, and is speaking
of the time when that man of sin will take a seat in the 3rd temple an
declare V4 that he is God.
These scriptures in context will be as they were spoken. Of that there is no
doubt.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the
son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his
time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now
letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
pleasure in unrighteousness.
That _these_ specific false signs and
lying wonders will occur in the future,
doesn't mean that until that time,
anyone claiming to do signs and wonders
must automatically be regarded as
performing genuine signs and wonders.
That's why you can't show us any footage
of signs and wonders happening today.
You've lied claiming to produce such
evidence, such as in your claim that the
current revival in the Amazon had "signs
following" it. No evidence of any such
claim or any such footage was made in
the video where you claimed the signs
and wonders were "following" today.
I've considered many videos you showed
in an effort to support such claims, and
all of them turned out to show no such
thing.
Meanwhile, 15 Bible evidences convince
me that Charismatics are claiming false
https://christrose.news/sign-cessation
Everything in this article you have
posted here, Robert, convinces me that
you're a self-deceived liar, who wastes
people's time repeating claims which
have already been shown to be false.
In no way does this ongoing pattern
require me to keep spending hours
researching and demonstrating again and
again, that you make false claims about
what others say, and about what the
Bible itself teaches.
I am not obligated, in the face of this
ongoing pattern, to pretend like you
walk into any discussion with automatic
credibility as one who speaks the truth.
I know you to promote dumb,
self-contradicting, Bible-contradicting,
and idiotic lies on a regular basis.
I am not obligated to treat every claim
and objection you make, as if it
deserves the time to be proved false.
You would have to admit to many, many
errors and falsehoods, then also
establish yourself as one who is honest
and truthful in a long pattern of
articles and responses, before you would
deserve to be treated like someone who
isn't a lying troll.
For that reason, I may spare myself the
agony of responding to every claim you
make, as if it requires a response or
refutation, and simply refer people to
this article. You've used up your
credibility with me, and you've wasted
way too much of my time already, with
your nonsense and lies.
========================================
Christ Rose
2024-10-04 02:35:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:51:53 -0700
<vdmp49$3r8sj$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
Tue, 01 Oct 2024 19:02:15 -0700,
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
“In Him also we have obtained an
inheritance, being predestined according
to the purpose of Him who works all
things according to the counsel of His
will,” (Ephesians 1:11, NKJV)
Post by Robert
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
This is where you go awry. God doesn't
have to overpower man's free will in
Note above, it says God doesn't "have
to" overpower man's free will in order
to remain sovereign, not whether God
"could" or "would" overthrow man's
decisions.
How can you determine that not knowing what Sovereign means?
You have not defined it yet. Therefore you cannot know what the word means.
Perhaps you would be best served to select another word to replace it,
1) Are you denying I have ever given you
a definition, or are you denying that
the definition you were given is the
correct definition?

If the former, why do you deny keep
denying that a definition was already
repeatedly given to you in the following
articles, and how are you not a liar?

https://christrose.news/sovereign
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news
***@christrose.news

If the latter, where did you demonstrate
in any of those articles, that the given
definition was incorrect, from a careful
analysis of Scripture?

2) Is it not a fool who answers a matter
before he hears it? Why didn't you wait
till you finished reading the article to
respond to it?

3) Why did you skip over the majority of
it, after complaining that all your
verses were not taken into
consideration, and after an hour was
wasted entertaining your objections?

4) Is such behavior consistent with one
who is willing to listen? Why did you
stick your fingers in your ears, just to
deny God's sovereignty?

5) Did Nebuchadnezzar not deny God's
sovereignty and try to take credit for
the kingdom himself? Did he not then
spend the next 7 years in a field eating
grass, till he acknowledged God's
sovereignty? Didn't he learn that God is
the one who delegated the authority to
him, and handed nations over to him, and
that this is how he received his
authority, by delegation from God? Can
God delegate something to someone which
God does not possess?

Have you never read this?

“That very hour the word was fulfilled
concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven
from men and ate grass like oxen; his
body was wet with the dew of heaven till
his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers
and his nails like birds’ claws.

And at the end of the time I,
Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to
heaven, and my understanding returned to
me; and I blessed the Most High and
praised and honored Him who lives forever:

For His dominion is an everlasting
dominion, And His kingdom is from
generation to generation.

All the inhabitants of the earth are
reputed as nothing;

HE DOES ACCORDING TO HIS WILL IN THE
ARMY OF HEAVEN AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS
OF THE EARTH.

No one can restrain His hand Or say to
Him, “What have You done?”

At the same time my reason returned to
me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my
honor and splendor returned to me. My
counselors and nobles resorted to me, I
was restored to my kingdom, and
excellent majesty was added to me. Now
I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and
honor the King of heaven, all of whose
works are truth, and His ways justice.
And those who walk in pride He is able
to put down.” (Daniel 4:33–37, NKJV,
emphasis mine)

Do you deny that God knows how to humble
the proud, till they acknowledge His
sovereignty? Have you not been warned?
Post by Robert
How can a sovereign being be thwarted?
Why do you suggest a sovereign God can
be thwarted?

Are you "asking for a friend", to try
and figure out how you can get away with
it?

Did Nebuchadnezzar not say "No one can
restrain His hand"? Did he not learn
that the hard way?
Post by Robert
Why and how was there a rebellion in
heaven?
How many times has it already been
stated to you that God uses even
free-will rebellion to accomplish His
predetermined purposes? Why do you deny
that?
Post by Robert
Did God design Lucifer to try and usurp His power? If so, for what purpose?
Do you resent God's sovereignty? Did
Paul not anticipate your objection in
Romans 9? Did He not conclude God
remains just, and that you, as His
creature, don't have the positional
standing or right to call Him to
account? Why then do you rebel against
God's sovereignty in such a way, or seek
to imply there must be injustice with
God being sovereign?

Does the Bible say God designed Lucifer
with the purpose of rebellion? Does it
not say God created Lucifer as a perfect
and beautiful being, endowed with wisdom
and responsibility, as described in
Ezekiel 28:12-15? Was Lucifer not
created to serve God and reflect His
glory? Was he not given "free will"? Did
he not use his own "free will" to rebel
in pride and a desire to exalt himself
above God (Isaiah 14:12-15)? Is that not
the path you're on in seeking to deny
God is sovereign?

Doesn't the purpose behind _allowing_
Lucifer's rebellion fit within God's
sovereign plan to display His justice,
mercy, and ultimate triumph over evil?
While the rebellion introduced sin and
conflict into the created order, didn't
it also provide the context for God to
reveal His redemptive plan through Jesus
Christ? Through Christ's death and
resurrection, doesn’t God conquer sin,
death, and the powers of darkness,
bringing about the ultimate victory for
His glory and the good of those who
believe in Him (Colossians 2:13-15;
Romans 8:28-30)?

In this way, doesn't even Satan's
rebellion serve to highlight the
supremacy of God's justice and grace?
Although God allows the existence of
evil and rebellion for a time, doesn't
He remain sovereign, using even the
opposition of His enemies to fulfill His
perfect purposes (Romans 9:22-24)?
Ultimately, doesn't Satan's defeat at
the hands of Christ demonstrate God's
power and righteousness, ensuring that
His plan of salvation through Christ
will be fully realized?
Post by Robert
Look carefully at Babel, and the power of mankind and what the Lord said
about that.
Gen 11:6-8
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one
language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from
them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not
understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the
earth: and they left off to build the city.
Haven’t I already addressed this below?
In fact, didn’t I offer it as evidence
of God's sovereignty? Didn’t God
frustrate their rebellion, showing that
when man's will contradicts God's
sovereign plans—plans to have man fill
the earth and populate it—God will
intervene and frustrate man's free will
until His purposes are achieved? Hence,
wasn’t there the confusion of languages,
and men spreading out over the face of
the earth, instead of continuing to
build their tower?
Post by Robert
V6 Explains a lot about a variety of things, but the big thing pointed out
here is when mankind operates as “one” who is to restrain them?
Isn’t the answer that God is the one who
restrained them? Didn’t He do just that,
proving He is sovereign? Won’t He
intervene and overpower and frustrate
men's free will when they use it in a
way that conflicts with His sovereign
plans and purposes?
Post by Robert
Also, who is the “us”?
By asking these kinds of side-questions,
are you not trying to fabricate a
context for endless side-arguments, to
avoid the fact of God's sovereignty? Do
you want to tangle the argument up and
bog it down in deviations from the main
point, as a pretext for confusion and
dodging?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
According to your past dogmatic statements
That depends on what you mean by
"dogmatic". If by dogmatic you mean to
state something as an established truth,
God's word is established truth ("thy
word is truth"--John 17:17).
Would you expect a believer to present
something God plainly teaches in
Scripture, as if it were a questionable
idea rather than an established truth?
Why don’t you ask if you do not know?
Did you not know it was rhetorical, or
do you not know how to answer the question?
Post by Robert
Without knowledge you assumptions are
vain and fruitless.
Who's dodging the question? Is it not
you? Are you seeking to impute your own
ignorance to others again?

Isn’t the answer that you don’t speak of
Bible truths as if they're questionable
ideas? Unless, are you not sure what the
Bible means?
Post by Robert
Whose dogmatic statements was I speaking of? Yours.
idem. And what definition of "dogmatic"
are you using?
Post by Robert
For instance, take your last paragraph, your assumption that you are saying
things correctly when many disagree with you, and often times even the local
context disproves what you decree. Then you persist in parroting that dogma
over and over again, and assume that all should agree with you and thus you
made a web site devoted to your dogma’s and doctrines.
1) Who has the pattern of simply citing
Scripture, stating his view, and then
claiming that any contradiction amounts
to contradicting God's word? Don’t you
do that? Isn’t that your normal pattern?
Don’t you routinely operate as if your
view of Scripture is equivalent to the
only correct understanding, and as if
you don’t even have to offer an
explanation for why you interpret the
passage as you do?

2) Again, what definition are you using
for "dogmatic"? If by dogmatic, do you
mean speaking as if it is an established
fact? Isn't the Bible established truth
(John 17)? Don’t you approach
established truth as if it were a
questionable idea only if you're unsure
of what it means?
Post by Robert
The Heavenly Father is able to do that, not you. And where is your peer
reviews? Where are the signs and wonders following that would make you
believe that you could “outPaul” Paul?
When did peer reviews become the
qualifying standard for proclaiming
Bible truth? Did Paul bring letters of
recommendation from men to the
Corinthians, like the "super apostles"
said he should?

And while we're at it, where are your
peer reviews, since that's now your
standard for trying to disqualify people
from proclaiming the truth? Why would I
have to produce something which you do
not? How do you not see your own
hypocrisy and double standards?
Post by Robert
For this reason one is to let the other judge to see if it is of God, or not.
Why are you trying to confuse prophecy
with teaching?

Doesn’t prophecy, in the sense mentioned
in Corinthians, refer to a direct
revelation from God? Doesn’t preaching
and teaching generally involve
explaining and applying the
already-revealed Word of God in
Scripture? Why do you seek to confuse these?

How are you not trying to open up one
can of worms after another, in an
apparent effort to cloud and bog down
the discussion of God's sovereignty? Are
you hoping to get things lost in a side
discussion, till the original topic is
obscured?
Post by Robert
Yes, this seems harsh to you, you might even be sincere it what you think you
are doing, but where is any sense of humility? Take stock of yourself
according to scripture and then determine who you seek to follow. God, or
your self righteous self.
Isn’t humility admitting that God is
sovereign and you're not?

Isn’t arrogance denying God's
sovereignty until He pulls a
Nebuchadnezzar on you?

Won’t every knee bow, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father?

Who delegated that authority to Christ,
and how does someone delegate that which
He does not already possess?
Post by Robert
Yes, this applies to everyone including myself.
Did you suspect I might think it didn't
apply to you? If not, why?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
you said he could and would at any
time.
"Could" and "would" are not "have to".
Did you really not know that, or are you
trying to deceive people by subtly using
different words?
Hear you are, parsing words, taking sound bites out of a complete thought,
seeking to destroy the thought obfuscate it, and shift the goal posts like
you did in your first reply where you totally ignored the scripture of the OP
and shift it here and then again with this bit parsing.
Am I the one who shifted the goal posts
by using a different word than the ones
I used when you offered your response,
or was that you who did that? What type
of confusion is that to claim I'm the
one who shifted the goal posts, when
you're the one who tried to slip in
alternate words?

Are you not the one who slaps quote
marks on random words of your choosing,
in other people's writing, and who then
insists that if that exact word you
chose isn't in your English Bibles, it
proves the claim to be false?

Why do you not operate by the standards
by which you seek to disqualify others?
Post by Robert
Judas went and hung himself,....go thou and do likewise.
That is a semblance of what you are attempting to do.
Am I the one who supplied alternate
words to someone's argument when
responding to it? Wasn't it you who
altered the phrasing? Why would you seek
to impute to me what you just did?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
1) "could": meaning God is able to
overpower man's free will. Yes, God can
overpower man's free will.
Not at all, God is a God of his word. God would not disagree with Himself and
force a being to think as He wants them to think and do.
Where did God promise that man will
always retain his right to exercise his
free will in opposition to God's plans
without God frustrating his efforts?

Did you not read the many examples of
where God frustrated the free will of
those who contradicted His sovereign plans?
Post by Robert
How can a man have
faith in a being of your description?
Did Paul not anticipate your objection
to God's sovereignty in Romans 9? Did he
not conclude that God remains just
despite your objections? Who do you
think you are to call your creator to
account for His actions?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Tower of Babel – The people sought to
build a tower to reach the heavens, but
God confused their language and
scattered them across the earth,
frustrating their plans for unity in
rebellion against Him (Genesis 11:1-9).
========================================
On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:51:53 -0700
<vdmp49$3r8sj$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
But he did not change their thoughts, their desires, he did not force them to
do things His way.
========================================

(Sorry. Had to get a snapshot of that.)

He didn't change their thoughts and
desires about building the tower?

1) If they did not have a change of
thoughts and desires, why did they abort
the building of the tower? Hello?

2) How did God confusing their languages
so they could no longer work together
not force them to fulfill His sovereign
plan to scatter over the face of the
earth, given this was the actual outcome
of God's intervention?

========================================
On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 11:51:53 -0700
<vdmp49$3r8sj$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
========================================
Post by Robert
Strange, I wrote about that at the beginning of this post.
He didn’t frustrate their plans, just made it impossible for a time to
communicate with each other.
========================================

Is this not the wisdom of Robert again,
ladies and gentlemen? Did I hear that
right? God did not frustrate their plans
to build the tower, He just made it
impossible for them to communicate with
each other to build the tower?

You see they wanted to build the tower
instead of scatter over the face of the
earth like God told them, right?

You see God intervened, right?

You see the result of God's intervention
was they in fact stopped building the
tower and did what God wanted them to do
by scattering over the face of the
earth, right?

How do you expect me to keep taking what
you say seriously, or keep pretending
like you're not either a stark-raving
idiot or liar, when you keep saying such
things?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
King Saul's pursuit of David – Despite
Saul's repeated attempts to kill David,
God continually frustrated his plans,
protecting David through various means,
including intervention by Jonathan,
David's escape, and divine confusion in
battle (1 Samuel 23:14; 1 Samuel
19:1-10).
Yet Saul still lived and died thinking as he did when he started opposing the
will of God.
Are you contending that by simply not
adequately repenting, Saul somehow
prevented God from being sovereign,
given that God's intended outcome is
what in fact succeeded, and that Saul's
desired outcome was frustrated again and
again, and prevented from happening?

How do you expect anyone to not conclude
you are either a complete fool, or that
you're too dishonest to carry on a
conversation with?

Have I not seen enough of your
foolishness for one day? Did you even
bother to read or respond to the last
effort I made and time I invested to
answer all of your objections? Why then
would I keep entertaining such folly?
Post by Robert
Saul knew that David was to be King. How many times was David close enough to
Saul to kill him, yet he did not, why was that? Did God frustrate David as
well?
What battle? There was no confusion during battle in either of those
scriptures you referenced.
Post by Christ Rose
Haman's plot against the Jews – Haman
planned to annihilate the Jews, but God
frustrated his plan by elevating Esther
to the queen's position and exposing
Haman's plot, leading to his downfall
(Esther 3-9).
Yet Haman remains true to his freewill. God did not change his heart, nor
Saul’s, Neither was forced to do something which was against their
freewill.
Post by Christ Rose
Sennacherib's invasion of Judah – The
Assyrian king sought to destroy
Jerusalem, but God sent an angel to
strike down 185,000 of his troops,
frustrating his plans and forcing him to
return home in defeat (2 Kings
19:32-36).
But whose mind and purpose did God override and make then change them change
their mind and their ways? Nothing here in all the scenarios you laid out
shows where God made the person themselves change and robotically follow the
will of God. And that is what you said he would and could do.
Where was anyones freewill and mindset changed whether they liked it or not?
Post by Christ Rose
The Pharisees’ and Jewish leaders' plans
against Jesus – Although they plotted to
kill Jesus, their plans were ultimately
part of God's redemptive plan through
Christ's death and resurrection,
frustrating their desire to end His
influence permanently (Acts 2:23; Acts
4:27-28).
It's obvious that there is no lack of
ability in God to overthrow man's
free-will efforts, when they contradict
His sovereign plan.
Really? If His plans were sovereign then why didn’t everything happen on
the time schedule of His choosing? How many times in the Bible did God delay
destructions and or events. A sovereign being says this is what is going to
be, and how it will be, and there will be no slack given.
Your sloppy arguments vary, as you have no understanding or guideline to
follow as to what is the meaning of Sovereign. You play games to allow
yourself wiggle room to fluctuate according to your thoughts of the day. That
is not fair to you or anyone, as there is no path or truth to follow.
Post by Christ Rose
Job 5:12 – "He frustrates the devices of
the crafty, so that their hands achieve
no success" (ESV).
He “breaks” the devices of the crafty” is the proper translation.
Post by Christ Rose
Psalm 33:10 – "The Lord brings the
counsel of the nations to nothing; he
frustrates the plans of the peoples"
(ESV).
Isaiah 8:10 – "Take counsel together,
but it will come to nothing; speak a
word, but it will not stand, for God is
with us" (ESV).
Nehemiah 4:15 – "When our enemies heard
that it was known to us and that God had
frustrated their plan, we all returned
to the wall, each to his work" (ESV).
2) "would": meaning God wills to
overpower man's free will. Yes, God
sometimes wills to overpower man's free
will.
Not within the man itself. Just look at your own personal own freewill to NOT
love the brethren or your brother. Has God removed or disallowed your free
will? And the more you resist it, the more your heart is hardened.
A sovereign being would at all times in every manner be sovereign.
Carry that thinking out and there would be no reason for Christ to die for
the sins of men, as he being in such tight control would just disallow sin.
As well as your right to sin, after all, that is what you are attempting to
say.
So what is the definition of Sovereign?
Post by Christ Rose
Examples: In all the examples above, God
willed to frustrate men's plans, and had
no problem doing so.
The word “frustrate” was not the correct word to use in most of those
cases.
God is able to ... “And we know that all things work together for good to
them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”
(Rom 8:28)
If He acted sovereignly all along, there there would be no situation that he
would be required to correct, or change the course of. Nothing would get out
of hand in the first place.
So again, what is the definition of Sovereign?
You can keep on surmising and throwing stuff up on the wall to find something
that sticks, but you cannot find truth or understandings in that fashion.
I know for a fact that I have in the past done things that were opposed to
the will of God, most unknowingly, yet I was accountable for all of them.
Thanks to His grace and mercy I was delivered from them all. In some
instances I kept banging my head against a wall, determined that things go my
way, until it just became too costly for me to continue on that path. I could
have kept on in my ways, but at what cost?
As it turns out one realizes via wisdom or the college of hard knocks, that
it is best to go with the flow, in my case to yield to God and allow him to
be the Master of my life. To yield myself to him and his ways, and to be
humble before him, willingly. Having learned that his ways are the best ways,
and a byproduct of all that is that I have a much better life in him.
A sovereign being would never have allowed me or anyone to go outside of his
will. And God being the wisest of all knows that if he controlled all things
according to his will in the nth degree, then how would he know who is
willing to love him and do His will with all their heart? And who is doing it
grudgingly and without Love, dwelling in fear that they loathe to be in. And
like a snake are just waiting to destroy their sovereign ruler.
Sure one can argue that he sees and knows the thoughts of man. And he could
then just destroy those who secretly are doing things out of fear and
loathing in order to purify all things, but what are the others going to say
when they see God seemingly just killing and destroying or condemning people
to hell, when everything others see on the surface is that the person was
doing all that God demanded of them.
If you ever were in a position of authority over others, then you should
understand that quite well.
So what is the definition of Sovereign.
Let us all know, and then I will continue if need be.
And if you think I short sheeted what you posted, then remember that this
thread you totally ignored what the thread was all about.
Post by Christ Rose
3) "has to": meaning God is under
obligation to overpower man's free will
in order to remain sovereign. That
depends on whether man chooses to do
something which is against God's
sovereign, predetermined plans.
Frequently, God uses man's free-will
decisions to accomplish His own
Joseph's brothers selling him into
slavery – Joseph’s brothers intended
harm when they sold him, but God used
their actions to position Joseph to save
many lives during the famine, including
their own (Genesis 50:20).
“But as for you, you meant evil against
me; but God meant it for good, in order
to bring it about as it is this day, to
save many people alive.” (Genesis 50:20,
NKJV)
God was not obligated to overpower the
free-will decisions of Joseph's
brothers. Instead, he used their will
gainst Joseph to work a greater plan of
salvation for the world. This is typical
of His plans with Christ (below).
Cyrus the Persian king – Though a pagan
king, Cyrus freely decreed the return of
the Jewish exiles to Jerusalem and the
rebuilding of the temple, fulfilling
God’s prophecy through Isaiah over a
century earlier (Isaiah 44:28; Ezra
1:1-4).
The crucifixion of Christ – Herod,
Pilate, the Jews, and the Gentiles
conspired against Christ, but their
free-will decisions accomplished God's
predetermined plan of redemption through
Christ's death and resurrection (Acts
2:23; Acts 4:27-28).
Paul’s imprisonment – The Jewish leaders
and Roman authorities sought to imprison
Paul, yet their actions led to Paul
sharing the gospel with Caesar’s
household and others in Rome, advancing
God’s plan to spread the gospel
(Philippians 1:12-14; Acts 28:30-31).
Conclusion: It is incorrect to
categorically state that God "has to"
overthrow man's free will to remain
sovereign. God only has to do that if
man's free-will decisions contradict His
sovereign plans. In many cases, man's
free-will opposition unwittingly (from
man's perspective) accomplishes a
greater good in God's predetermined
plans. When man's plans contradict God's
sovereign will, He most certainly can
and will overthrow them.
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
1) If it is His plan to delegate
authority to men, then that's part of
His sovereign plan. He doesn't cease to
be sovereign, just because He makes the
decision to delegate authority to man.
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Note, he claims this is the "first time"
I have acknowledged that. Not only is
this not the first time I acknowledged
it, I previously used it as a point to
refute his own denial of God's
sovereignty. Considering the following
citations, are you operating here on the
basis of ignorance, or intentional
deceit?
========================================
Fri, 05 Jul 2024 11:21:13 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
3) One of your main reasons for denying
God's sovereignty, is your "free will of
man" objection. As I understand it, you
hold the view that God can't be
sovereign if man has a free will. That
also contradicts the plain teaching of
Scripture. For example, only a sovereign
God who has authority over everything,
could delegate His authority over
creation to man. If He didn't have that
authority, He couldn't delegate it.
========================================
========================================
Sat, 06 Jul 2024 21:06:26 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
In all of the objections you raise
below, none of them necessitates that
God is not sovereign. For example, if
God delegates authority to man, then
that was because it was His intention to
do so. So He doesn't cease to be
sovereign by delegating His authority.
Or again, if God chooses to allow men to
rebel and suffer the consequences of
their rebellion, then it was still His
sovereign choice to do so. He doesn't
cease to be sovereign, simply because
His plan includes allowing men to rebel
against His commands.
========================================
========================================
Sat, 06 Jul 2024 21:06:26 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
1) Whatever authority God chooses to
delegate, it's because He chose to
delegate it. When He revokes it, it's
because He wants to revoke it. In either
case, He is exercising His sovereign
will in the matter.
========================================
========================================
Tue, 23 Jul 2024 00:53:44 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
God doesn't have _some_ sovereignty, as
if He were in charge of heaven, and men
were sovereign over earth. He is
sovereign everywhere, over all things,
period. This means men only exercise
authority that God decides to delegate
to them, for as long as God decides to
delegate it to them. Since it was His
decision to delegate the authority, it
is still His sovereign plan being
executed.
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
2) God uses the free-will decisions of
even those who oppose Him, in order to
That is the first time you acknowledged that.
Note his words here. He says this is the
"first time" I've "acknowledged" that
God uses the free-will decisions of even
those who oppose Him, in order to
accomplish His own predetermined plan.
This type of recurring falsehood is
exactly why I don't have to pretend like
you walk into a discussion with any
========================================
Fri, 02 Aug 2024 20:05:43 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
sovereign God uses the
free-will rebellion of His creatures to
accomplish His own predestined plans for
“His brothers also came and fell down
before him and said, “Behold, we are
your servants.” But Joseph said to them,
“Do not fear, for am I in the place of
God? As for you, you meant evil against
me, but God meant it for good, to bring
it about that many people should be kept
alive, as they are today.” (Genesis
50:18–20, ESV)
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
You can tout your "free will" all you
want. It doesn't diminish God's
sovereignty in the slightest. Even when
you rebel against Him, it's because He
chose to allow you to do so, and because
He predestined an outcome of greater
good to result from it for His elect.
========================================
========================================
Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:59:18 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
God's sovereignty extends to the timing
and nature of events in human lives.
Individuals must approach God on His
terms. McGee illustrates this by
referencing the need to align with God's
will and timing (Leviticus 10:1-5). Even
the evil intents of people serve His
purposes, as seen in the conspiracy
against Jesus by Pilate and Herod (Acts
4:27-28).
========================================
========================================
Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:02:02 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
He even uses the free-will rebellion of
men to accomplish His greater,
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
Did Herod and Pilate make their own
decisions from their own free will? Yep.
Did that thwart God's sovereign,
predestined plans? Nope. They
accomplished God's predestined plans by
exercising their own free will.
========================================
========================================
Thu, 22 Aug 2024 18:36:04 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
3) Most importantly (as has been pointed
out many times), God's sovereignty does
not hinge on whether or not you choose
to obey Him. He remains sovereign even
when you choose to oppose His will. This
is evident in that everyone who
conspired against Christ was actually
fulfilling God's predestined plan for
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
========================================
========================================
Thu, 22 Aug 2024 12:57:08 -0500,
========================================
Post by Robert
God uses the
free-will opposition of men who
contradict Him, to accomplish His own
predestined purposes.
“for truly in this city there were
gathered together against your holy
servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both
Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the
Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to
do whatever your hand and your plan had
predestined to take place.” (Acts
4:27–28, ESV)
God doesn't become sovereign if and when
you decide to obey him. He will take
even your "free-will" rebellion and
accomplish His own predetermined
purposes with it.
========================================
That was only half of the references
where I previously not only
acknowledged, but stated as a point
which refutes your denial of God's
sovereignty, that God can even use the
free-will decisions of man to accomplish
His greater, predetermined plans.
Now, why do I have to keep pretending
like this denier of God's sovereignty
comes into any discussion, with any
degree of credibility as one who tells
the truth? How are you not either too
coincidentally and selectively ignorant
of reality, or too much of a willful
liar to carry on a conversation that is
consistent with truth and reality?
How much of my time must be wasted,
digging through archives, to expose this
deceiver's falsehoods, before I can
simply operate on the basis of the fact
he established, which is that he does
not operate in consistency with the
truth when he makes his false claims?
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
““For truly against Your holy Servant
Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and
Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and
the people of Israel, were gathered
together to do whatever Your hand and
Your purpose determined before to be
done.” (Acts 4:27–28, NKJV)
Did Herod and Pilate and all those who
exercised gathered against Christ
exercise their free will in opposing
Him? Yes they did.
Was their free-will decision to oppose
Christ what God's purpose determined
before hand to be done. Yep.
So it's not an either-or scenario here,
where either man has a free will or God
is sovereign. Both are true. Man makes
his free-will decisions on the basis of
God's plan to allow him to make those
decisions, yet their free-will decisions
accomplish exactly what God determined
beforehand would be done.
Yet all your prior claims stated otherwise.
1) He doesn't dispute that statement,
which exposes his own denial of God's
sovereignty as a lie.
2) Every documented example that has
been cited here (Robert cited none of
his own to support his claims) shows
that I've repeatedly stated these
things. The tool now tries to convey the
notion that he finally got me to admit
for the first time, something which I've
been using all along to refute his
idiotic denials of God's sovereignty.
Conclusion: I have every sound reason to
believe this man is either too
conveniently and selectively ignorant of
reality, or too dishonest to carry on an
edifying conversation with. I firmly
believe he is a liar, based on almost
non-stop examples like these, of his own
false statements.
Post by Robert
Of course you have yet to define the word ’sovereign’ so I guess that is
the reason you never did, leaving yourself wiggle room.
It doesn't surprise me that someone who
denies God Himself is sovereign, would
also deny that a definition of what it
means that God is sovereign, has been
Here is the definition he denies
https://christrose.news/sovereign
All of these provide a definition of
God's sovereignty from the Bible, by
myself and five respected Bible
teachers.
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Post by Robert
have a very hard time believing these verses.
It's not our fault you don't understand
those verses, or that you fabricate a
god that is stupid enough for you to be
able to fit in your feeble comprehension.
You now are stating a different tune than before, something very different
that what you said before, and argued against what I mentioned before about
the domain of man and freewill.
1) You cited no evidence of any such
thing.
2) As shown above, I have cited multiple
examples of the fact I've been saying
that all along.
3) Not only that, but these points which
you now pretend you got me to finally
admit, refute your own denials of God's
sovereignty.
Post by Robert
I hope you stick to these truths.
I'm not the one who has been denying
God's sovereignty. You are. And the
evidence you now pretend like you have
finally gotten me to admit, are the very
truths I have been using all along to
demonstrate the falsehoods of your
denial of God's soverignty.
You are too detached from reality and
truth to carry on an edifying
conversation with. You waste time,
promoting self-contradicting falsehoods
and deceit, without even taking the time
to research any evidence to support your
claims. Almost everything you've said
here shows you promote stupefying
falsehoods in almost everything you
claim.
I don't have to keep pretending like you
are here to promote truth. Every
indication I have points to the
conclusion that you are a deceiver, who
will say any dumb, self-contradicting
thing he can think of, to maintain his
own denial of reality.
God is sovereign. You are not.
Post by Robert
Of course you haven’t acknowledge all the scriptures you snipped out in my
OP.
The idea that I haven't already
addressed these before, is yet another
falsehood that you promote here.
Let's look at this deceiver's verses
again, and waste some more time
========================================
Tue, 01 Oct 2024 16:40:16 -0700,
========================================
Post by Robert
The very people that claim that God controls all things in this present world
an over rides free will and the power of Dominion that he has given to others
have a very hard time believing these verses.
Note the stakes this deciever tries to
raise here. He's implying that if a
person doesn't join him in denying God's
sovereignty, THEY are the ones who don't
believe the Scriptures!
Post by Robert
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give
him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things
to them that ask him?
“Now this is the confidence that we have
in Him, that if we ask anything
according to His will, He hears us. And
if we know that He hears us, whatever we
ask, we know that we have the petitions
that we have asked of Him.” (1 John
5:14–15, NKJV)
See that phrase "according to His will"?
Yeah. That's it. That's the truth you're
lying against here.
The deceiver tries to free-lance verses
from the gospels, without consulting the
inspired commentary on the gospels (the
epistles), which clearly indicates that
before God answers our prayers, we have
to ask Him something which is "according
to His will".
Now, I don't know about Robert here, but
the condition of having to ask
"according to His will", kind of sounds
to me like God is the one who is
sovereign when it comes to answering
prayer. Prayer isn't you getting God to
do your sovereign will. It's you finally
accepting God's sovereign will in the
matter.
Thus, he promotes false interpretations
of the gospels, to support his desired
beliefs, even though they contradict the
plain statements of Scripture. And he
tries to make his own lies a condition
by which to determine whether or not
someone is even a believer in God!
Post by Robert
This, of course is written for those who actually have faith and believer on
Jesus and have become sons of God.
Idem. See how he tries to present his
own beliefs, which were shown to be
false, as if they were evidence of
whether or not somone even has faith in
God. It's not enough to relish your own
falsehoods alone. You have to try and
get everyone involved in your own error,
by making salvation itself hinge on
whether or not we believe in your Bible
contradicting lies!
You have to ask "according to His will",
before you can expect God to answer your
prayers. That in no way implies God is
not sovereign. It indicates He is
sovereign.
Post by Robert
Yet they claim that Satan is the one doing
miracles and lying wonders in these days. Seemingly over riding the promises
that Jesus made 2K years ago.
1) We just saw that you falsely
concluded that God is obligated to
answer prayers that are according to
your will. On the contrary. You are
required to pray according to God's
will, before you get an answer to
prayer.
How many times has this deceiver seen
Jesus praying, "not my will, but thine
be done"? God Himself subjected Himself
to God the Father's sovereign will in
answering prayer.
Yet Robert deludes himself with the idea
that He's got control over God. God has
to do what he asks, he reasons. No, God
does not have to do what you ask, unless
you first submit yourself to His
sovereign will! If we ask "according to
His will", THEN He answers with HIS will
being done.
2) Jesus made no promises of perpetual
miracles and wonders in the church. They
were required to validate Jesus as the
Messiah, to fulfill God's prophecy about
testifying to Israel by people of a
strange tongue, and to confirm the
gospel message the disciples proclaimed.
All of that has been "confirmed"
(Hebrews 2:3-4), and the signs and
wonders done by God faded out by the end
of Paul's ministry.
For 15 Bible evidences that the signs
and wonders God was doing have ceased,
https://christrose.news/sign-cessation
Post by Robert
Then why do they Claim that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
This objection has also been answered
repeatedly. I do not have to pretend it
has not.
========================================
Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:21:53 -0500,
Christ Rose
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Thus God is God and He changes not, oh ye of little faith.
He IS the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Another idiotic misrepresentation about
God. While God's character does not
change, His stewardship dealings with
men have changed regularly, throughout
History. This is why we don't offer
animal sacrifices today, and why
doctrinal integrity according to the
Bible, not signs and wonders, is stated
to be the test of authenticity for those
who proclaim God's word (2 John 9-11).
========================================
========================================
Thu, 02 Nov 2023 13:41:40 -0500,
Christ Rose
========================================
Post by Robert
Post by Christ Rose
Jesus the Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. Blessed be His Name.
Although God never changes, His
stewardship relationships with men do
change. That's why we're not currently
offering animal sacrifices for our sins,
but relying on the once-for-all
atonement Christ made. Robert is a
clueless tool who fabricates his own
doctrines out of thin air, and confuses
one teaching with another, to weave what
he wants to believe.
========================================
Post by Robert
Who, who is the liar here, them or God.
You, for trying to equate your lie that
if God doesn't change, then his
stewardships towards man cannot change
either, with truth. It is not. We are
not living under the ceremonial laws,
simply because God never changes.
Likewise, the Law was not introduced in
the first place, because God changed.
God's differing economies are part of
God's unchanging plans to test man under
a variety of stewardships, to
consistently point them (in their falure
to meet those stewardship requirements)
to their need Christ for Christ as
Savior.
Post by Robert
Now addressing their excuses made out of total ignorance and disbelief the
scriptures that they quote about lying wonders, as their excuse for doubt and
disbelief, that has hardened their hearts towards the things of God as well
as the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We just saw that the promises he tried
to use about prayer were all contingent
on whether one prays "according to His
will". Thus, all of his accusations here
in this paragraph are based on his own
ignorant, erroneous, and false premise
that God has to do what Robert wants Him
to do when Robert prays. On the
contrary. Prayer is not you (Robert)
getting God to do your will, but God
getting you to accept His will in the
matter.
Post by Robert
Here is what they are referring to, I am
including the bulk of the context in which it was written which they all
ignore the truth of it.
We just saw you ignore the truth that
prayer must be "according to His will",
not yours. We know that even Jesus
Himself always prayed "not my will, but
thine be done", to the Father.
Post by Robert
This is speaking directly regarding the man of Sin. The Antichrist which is
to come, whose spirit since the time of Christ Jesus, as tried to collapse
the Gospel and create doubt, strife and divisions.
This man of sin will not be revealed until after the resurrection of all
believers when Jesus comes in the air to gather us all up to be with him
forever more.
Paul is clearly prophesying here of that future day and time, and is speaking
of the time when that man of sin will take a seat in the 3rd temple an
declare V4 that he is God.
These scriptures in context will be as they were spoken. Of that there is no
doubt.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the
son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his
time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now
letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
pleasure in unrighteousness.
That _these_ specific false signs and
lying wonders will occur in the future,
doesn't mean that until that time,
anyone claiming to do signs and wonders
must automatically be regarded as
performing genuine signs and wonders.
That's why you can't show us any footage
of signs and wonders happening today.
You've lied claiming to produce such
evidence, such as in your claim that the
current revival in the Amazon had "signs
following" it. No evidence of any such
claim or any such footage was made in
the video where you claimed the signs
and wonders were "following" today.
I've considered many videos you showed
in an effort to support such claims, and
all of them turned out to show no such
thing.
Meanwhile, 15 Bible evidences convince
me that Charismatics are claiming false
https://christrose.news/sign-cessation
Everything in this article you have
posted here, Robert, convinces me that
you're a self-deceived liar, who wastes
people's time repeating claims which
have already been shown to be false.
In no way does this ongoing pattern
require me to keep spending hours
researching and demonstrating again and
again, that you make false claims about
what others say, and about what the
Bible itself teaches.
I am not obligated, in the face of this
ongoing pattern, to pretend like you
walk into any discussion with automatic
credibility as one who speaks the truth.
I know you to promote dumb,
self-contradicting, Bible-contradicting,
and idiotic lies on a regular basis.
I am not obligated to treat every claim
and objection you make, as if it
deserves the time to be proved false.
You would have to admit to many, many
errors and falsehoods, then also
establish yourself as one who is honest
and truthful in a long pattern of
articles and responses, before you would
deserve to be treated like someone who
isn't a lying troll.
For that reason, I may spare myself the
agony of responding to every claim you
make, as if it requires a response or
refutation, and simply refer people to
this article. You've used up your
credibility with me, and you've wasted
way too much of my time already, with
your nonsense and lies.
========================================
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Robert
2024-10-05 04:15:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christ Rose
why do you deny keep
denying that a definition was already
repeatedly given to you in the following
articles, and how are you not a liar?
Very simple, you provided no definition., of course I am assuming that you
have some knowledge of what a dictionary definition is. If you do not, then I
apologize.

Loading...