Discussion:
When you pray
(too old to reply)
((Matt((
2009-07-16 19:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)

2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,[a]
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.[b]
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.” [c]

Footnotes:

1. Luke 11:2 NU-Text omits Our and in heaven.
2. Luke 11:2 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.
3. Luke 11:4 NU-Text omits But deliver us from the evil one.


Going up to the mountain to pray and reflect.

Thought I'd leave you with this.

God Bless You All

Matt
I
2009-07-16 22:18:09 UTC
Permalink
"((Matt((" wrote:

> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>
> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>
> Our Father in heaven,[a]
> Hallowed be Your name.
> Your kingdom come.[b]
> Your will be done
> On earth as it is in heaven.
> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
> 4 And forgive us our sins,
> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
> And do not lead us into temptation,
> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]


So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????

Our Jesus
who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's Christ)
Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
My fundamentalist will be done
On earth as it is heavin'
Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
And forgive us our trespasses
As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"

In Jesus name

Amen


--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Abby
2009-07-16 22:51:34 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000477> wrote in message
news:4a5fa71f$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "((Matt((" wrote:
>
>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>
>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>
>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>> Hallowed be Your name.
>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>> Your will be done
>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>
>
> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>
> Our Jesus
> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God
> ...
> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
> Christ)
> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
> Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
> My fundamentalist will be done
> On earth as it is heavin'
> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
> And forgive us our trespasses
> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>
> In Jesus name
>
> Amen
>
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

Mark do you consider yourself a Christian or a Pagan?

Abby
I
2009-07-16 22:57:14 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

in message news:h3ob9i$gg9$***@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "I" <***@home0000477> wrote in message
> news:4a5fa71f$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> "((Matt((" wrote:
>>
>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>
>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>
>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>> Your will be done
>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>
>>
>> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>>
>> Our Jesus
>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
>> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
>> Christ)
>> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
>> Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
>> My fundamentalist will be done
>> On earth as it is heavin'
>> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
>> And forgive us our trespasses
>> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>>
>> In Jesus name
>>
>> Amen
>
> Mark do you consider yourself a Christian or a Pagan?


Abby, WHO do you pray to? Jesus or God??????

That will determine whether you are a pagan or a Christian.
Abby
2009-07-16 23:00:58 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
news:4a5fb048$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> in message news:h3ob9i$gg9$***@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "I" <***@home0000477> wrote in message
>> news:4a5fa71f$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>> "((Matt((" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>>
>>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>>
>>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>>> Your will be done
>>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>>
>>>
>>> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>>>
>>> Our Jesus
>>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of
>>> God ...
>>> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and
>>> God's Christ)
>>> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
>>> Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
>>> My fundamentalist will be done
>>> On earth as it is heavin'
>>> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
>>> And forgive us our trespasses
>>> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>>>
>>> In Jesus name
>>>
>>> Amen
>>
>> Mark do you consider yourself a Christian or a Pagan?
>
>
> Abby, WHO do you pray to? Jesus or God??????
>
> That will determine whether you are a pagan or a Christian.

I asked you.
Abby
I
2009-07-16 23:03:30 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>>>
>>>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>>>> Your will be done
>>>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>>>
>>>> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>>>>
>>>> Our Jesus
>>>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God
>>>> ...
>>>> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
>>>> Christ)
>>>> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
>>>> Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
>>>> My fundamentalist will be done
>>>> On earth as it is heavin'
>>>> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
>>>> And forgive us our trespasses
>>>> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>>>>
>>>> In Jesus name
>>>>
>>>> Amen
>>>
>>> Mark do you consider yourself a Christian or a Pagan?
>>
>> Abby, WHO do you pray to? Jesus or God??????
>>
>> That will determine whether you are a pagan or a Christian.
>
> I asked you.


Who did Jesus say to pray to????
((Matt))
2009-07-16 22:52:53 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:18:09 +1000, "I" <***@home0000477> wrote:

>"((Matt((" wrote:
>
>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>
>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>
>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>> Hallowed be Your name.
>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>> Your will be done
>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>
>
>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????

Christians do not just the hate filled.
>
>Our Jesus
>who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
>though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's Christ)
>Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
>Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
>My fundamentalist will be done
>On earth as it is heavin'
>Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
>And forgive us our trespasses
>As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>
>In Jesus name
>
>Amen
I
2009-07-16 22:58:54 UTC
Permalink
"((Matt))" wrote:

>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>
>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>
>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>> Your will be done
>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>
>>
>>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>
> Christians do not just the hate filled.


Jesus said to pray to the Father so WHY do some Christians pray to Jesus
instead????
Abby
2009-07-16 23:03:34 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
news:4a5fb0ac$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "((Matt))" wrote:
>
>>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>>
>>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>>
>>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>>> Your will be done
>>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>>
>>>
>>>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>>
>> Christians do not just the hate filled.
>
>
> Jesus said to pray to the Father so WHY do some Christians pray to
> Jesus instead????


Because the Bible says you cannot get to the Father without going
through the Son who is of course Jesus.
I pray to the Father, the Triune God.

Abby
I
2009-07-16 23:11:17 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>>>
>>>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>>>> Your will be done
>>>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>>>
>>>>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>>>
>>> Christians do not just the hate filled.
>>
>> Jesus said to pray to the Father so WHY do some Christians pray to Jesus
>> instead????
>
> Because the Bible says you cannot get to the Father without going through
> the Son who is of course Jesus.
> I pray to the Father, the Triune God.


1. "in Jesus' name" means "in Jesus method' according to Aramaic scholar
George M Lamsa. It doesn't mean adding "in Jesus name" at the end of a
prayer. It is not some sort of magic formula for Christians as if God will
not hear your prayers unless it is said. Likewise God doesn't need to hear
an "Amen" in order to know that you've finished praying.

2. The One God Yaweh is one and not three.

3. John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes unto the
Father except through me.

"Three I AM sayings have been combined in v.6 .... Like the other I AM
sayings ... this one too, has been formulated by the evangelist, possibly
out of older formulas." - Funk, Hoover & The Jesus Seminar "The Five
Gospels: Polebridge:1993) p.451

The120 Jesus Seminar Scholars designated this saying BLACK - "I would not
include this item in the primary database / Jesus did not say this; it
represents the perspective or content of a later or different tradition".

Putting it in Plain English - Jesus of Nazareth NEVER stated John 14:6. It
is the invention of the writer of the gospel (who WASN'T the apostle John.)
4. I'm a Christian who follows the same One God whom Jesus followed and
therefore I pray to the same One God whom Jesus prayed to. I'm not a pagan
who prays to a human like Jesus of Nazareth.


--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Abby
2009-07-16 23:33:40 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
news:4a5fb393$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
>>>>>> Hallowed be Your name.
>>>>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
>>>>>> Your will be done
>>>>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>>>>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>>>>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>>>>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>>>>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>>>>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>>>>>
>>>>>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>>>>
>>>> Christians do not just the hate filled.
>>>
>>> Jesus said to pray to the Father so WHY do some Christians pray to
>>> Jesus instead????
>>
>> Because the Bible says you cannot get to the Father without going
>> through the Son who is of course Jesus.
>> I pray to the Father, the Triune God.
>
>
> 1. "in Jesus' name" means "in Jesus method' according to Aramaic
> scholar George M Lamsa. It doesn't mean adding "in Jesus name" at
> the end of a prayer. It is not some sort of magic formula for
> Christians as if God will not hear your prayers unless it is said.
> Likewise God doesn't need to hear an "Amen" in order to know that
> you've finished praying.
>
> 2. The One God Yaweh is one and not three.
>
> 3. John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes
> unto the
> Father except through me.
>
> "Three I AM sayings have been combined in v.6 .... Like the other I
> AM
> sayings ... this one too, has been formulated by the evangelist,
> possibly
> out of older formulas." - Funk, Hoover & The Jesus Seminar "The Five
> Gospels: Polebridge:1993) p.451
>
> The120 Jesus Seminar Scholars designated this saying BLACK - "I
> would not include this item in the primary database / Jesus did not
> say this; it
> represents the perspective or content of a later or different
> tradition".
>
> Putting it in Plain English - Jesus of Nazareth NEVER stated John
> 14:6. It
> is the invention of the writer of the gospel (who WASN'T the apostle
> John.)
> 4. I'm a Christian who follows the same One God whom Jesus followed
> and therefore I pray to the same One God whom Jesus prayed to. I'm
> not a pagan who prays to a human like Jesus of Nazareth.
>
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall


Mark, in Genesis 3 : 22 after Adam and Eve had sinned what did God
say? Who was He talking to? (NIV)

Abby
I
2009-07-17 00:08:41 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:


> Mark, in Genesis 3 : 22 after Adam and Eve had sinned what did God say?
> Who was He talking to? (NIV)


And the LORD God *[Yahweh not Jesus of Nazareth] said , "Now that the man
has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch
out his hand and also take from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!"

1. This is a myth and not time space history.

2. The royal "we" does not imply a plurality of the One God but is a JEWISH
IDIOM for expressing the majesty of God.

3. The writer imagines the One God speaking out aloud to the reader.

Now a question for you ...........

###########################################

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall love the
LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
might.

Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)

*[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning the ONE
God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]

#############################################

And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and because
he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him, 'Of all the
commandments, which is the most important?'

Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is one LORD,
and you are to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul
[and all your mind] and with all your energy.'

And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You have
correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside him. And 'to
love him with all one's heart and with all one's mind and with all one's
energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself' is greater than all the
burnt offerings and sacrifices put together."

And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him, "You are
not far from God's domain."

Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version

*[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy 6:4 -5
meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]

#################################################

Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest commandment?????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THE CONFUSION OF LORDS

"Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
"Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New Testament
THEREFORE
YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord") for "YHWH"
in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the New Testament.


--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Abby
2009-07-17 00:33:09 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
news:4a5fc107$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Mark, in Genesis 3 : 22 after Adam and Eve had sinned what did
>> God say? Who was He talking to? (NIV)
>
>
> And the LORD God *[Yahweh not Jesus of Nazareth] said , "Now that
> the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he
> should stretch out his hand and also take from the tree of life and
> eat, and live forever!"
>
> 1. This is a myth and not time space history.
>
> 2. The royal "we" does not imply a plurality of the One God but is a
> JEWISH IDIOM for expressing the majesty of God.
>
> 3. The writer imagines the One God speaking out aloud to the reader.
>
> Now a question for you ...........
>
> ###########################################
>
> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall love
> the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and
> with all your might.
>
> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
>
> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning
> the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>
> #############################################
>
> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him, 'Of
> all the commandments, which is the most important?'
>
> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is
> one LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your heart
> and all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your energy.'
>
> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You
> have correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside
> him. And 'to love him with all one's heart and with all one's mind
> and with all one's energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself'
> is greater than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices put
> together."
>
> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him,
> "You are not far from God's domain."
>
> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
>
> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy
> 6:4 -5 meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of
> Nazareth.]
>
> #################################################
>
> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest
> commandment?????
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
>
> "Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
> "Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New
> Testament
> THEREFORE
> YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord")
> for "YHWH" in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the
> New Testament.
>
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

Genesis1:26 (NIV) Then God said Let US make man in OUR
image.....................

Mark, I am not going to banter over this with you because even if you
do not believe in a Triune God you still act and treat people as
though you honor No God at all. Why is that? You are so mean. We
will agree to disagree on this as the argument could go on forever. I
notice you use other publications such as the apocrypha (sp) to study
by. If you are so learned, why must you degrade Christians so badly?

Abby
I
2009-07-17 01:06:49 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Now a question for you ...........
>> ###########################################
>> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall love the
>> LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all
>> your might.
>> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
>> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning the ONE
>> God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>> #############################################
>> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
>> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him, 'Of all
>> the commandments, which is the most important?'
>> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is one
>> LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your heart >> and
>> all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your energy.'
>> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You have
>> correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside him. And 'to
>> love him with all one's heart and with all one's mind and with all one's
>> energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself' is greater than all the
>> burnt offerings and sacrifices put together."
>> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him, "You
>> are not far from God's domain."
>> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
>> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy 6:4 -5
>> meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>> #################################################
>>
>> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest commandment?????
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
>> "Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
>> "Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New
>> Testament
>> THEREFORE
>> YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord") for
>> "YHWH" in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the New
>> Testament.
....
> Genesis1:26 (NIV) Then God said Let US make man in OUR
> image.....................

The royal "we" does not imply a plurality of the One God but is a JEWISH
IDIOM for expressing the majesty of God.

Do you have any idea what an idiom is?????????

I note that you cannopt answer my question: "Where is Jesus of Nazareth
mentioned in the greatest commandment?????"

The answer, of course, is that Jesus of Nazareth ISN'T mentioned in the
greatest commandment.

The Jewish Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) does not mention Jesus of Nazareth.

Whatever your "trinity" is, it is NOT the One God whom Jesus worshipped and
was quoted in the passages above.

Why have you chosen to be a pagan worshipping a human as God????


> you still act and treat people as though you honor No God at all. Why is
> > that? You are so mean.

I disagree with Christian fundamentalism therefore I am mean. That makes
sense ............ not!

You should read Christians such as Martin Luther (with his swear words) or
Jonathan Swift or Rabelaise or Ersamus.


> I notice you use other publications such as the apocrypha (sp) to study
> by.

"apocrypha" ????? QUE????

The Tanakh (Jewish Publication Society: 1985) is the JEWISH Bible - The Old
Testament.

Scholars Version of the Five Gospels was created by the 120 scholars in the
Jesus Seminar.

--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Abby
2009-07-17 14:33:14 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
news:4a5fceb3$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Now a question for you ...........
>>> ###########################################
>>> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall
>>> love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
>>> and with all your might.
>>> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
>>> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning
>>> the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>>> #############################################
>>> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
>>> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him,
>>> 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?'
>>> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is
>>> one LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your
>>> heart >> and all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your
>>> energy.'
>>> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You
>>> have correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside
>>> him. And 'to love him with all one's heart and with all one's
>>> mind and with all one's energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as
>>> oneself' is greater than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices
>>> put together."
>>> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him,
>>> "You are not far from God's domain."
>>> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
>>> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy
>>> 6:4 -5 meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus
>>> of Nazareth.]
>>> #################################################
>>>
>>> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest
>>> commandment?????
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
>>> "Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
>>> "Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New
>>> Testament
>>> THEREFORE
>>> YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord")
>>> for "YHWH" in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the
>>> New Testament.
> ....
>> Genesis1:26 (NIV) Then God said Let US make man in OUR
>> image.....................
>
> The royal "we" does not imply a plurality of the One God but is a
> JEWISH
> IDIOM for expressing the majesty of God.
>
> Do you have any idea what an idiom is?????????
>
> I note that you cannopt answer my question: "Where is Jesus of
> Nazareth mentioned in the greatest commandment?????"
>
> The answer, of course, is that Jesus of Nazareth ISN'T mentioned in
> the greatest commandment.
>
> The Jewish Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) does not mention Jesus of
> Nazareth.
>
> Whatever your "trinity" is, it is NOT the One God whom Jesus
> worshipped and was quoted in the passages above.
>
> Why have you chosen to be a pagan worshipping a human as God????
>
>
>> you still act and treat people as though you honor No God at all.
>> Why is > that? You are so mean.
>
> I disagree with Christian fundamentalism therefore I am mean. That
> makes sense ............ not!
>
> You should read Christians such as Martin Luther (with his swear
> words) or Jonathan Swift or Rabelaise or Ersamus.
>
>
>> I notice you use other publications such as the apocrypha (sp) to
>> study by.
>
> "apocrypha" ????? QUE????
>
> The Tanakh (Jewish Publication Society: 1985) is the JEWISH Bible -
> The Old Testament.
>
> Scholars Version of the Five Gospels was created by the 120 scholars
> in the Jesus Seminar.
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall


I do NOT worship any human Mark. I worship God. Who happens to be The
Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The Father God, or the
Godhead. The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?

Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
you are Mark. I am not a pagan and I resent you calling me such.
If you wish to call me a fundie, I do not mind. I think its funny as
do most of us I think, but you are still so mean to people that they
don't take you seriously because of it. You have become the butt of
the NG jokes.

You are obviously a smart person, why not use it in a more
constructive way instead of tearing people down?

Abby
Dr. House
2009-07-17 14:49:05 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 7:33 am, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]
> I do NOT worship any human Mark.  I worship God. Who happens to be The
> Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The  Father God, or the
> Godhead.  The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?
>
> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
> you are Mark.

Interesting analogy. Did you realize it is a Oneness analogy rather
than a Trinity analogy?

Does Mark the husband know what Mark the son is doing right now? Of
course he does for they are just different names for the same
personality. Mark has different roles and his title changes in each
role. You can't point to any example of Trinity in nature. The three
states of water is a Oneness analogy. And the human mind lacks the
ability to understand Trinity which is contrary to our understanding
of logic.

Of course I now realize that Oneness doesn't fit the entire Bible any
more that Trinity does. That is because the authors of the Bible did
not agree with each other.

> I am not a pagan and I resent you calling me such.
> If you wish to call me a fundie, I do not mind.   I think its funny as
> do most of us I think, but you are still so mean to people that they
> don't take you seriously  because of it.

I would have to agree. I think Mark T would greatly improve his
impact if he were to tone it down and be super nice even to
the . . . . er . . . most fundamentalist of the fundamentalists.

> You have become the butt of
> the NG jokes.

I don't know about that. He seems to be a source of the jokes.

> You are obviously a smart person, why not use it in a more
> constructive way instead of tearing people down?

I would agree with that as well. But then Mark is not House. I can
understand if Mark wants to follow his own path rather than mine.


God bless,

House
I
2009-07-17 22:44:31 UTC
Permalink
"Dr. House" wrote:

>> I do NOT worship any human Mark. I worship God. Who happens to >> be The
>> Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The Father God, >> or the
>> Godhead. The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?
>> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
>> you are Mark.
>
> Interesting analogy.

Isn't it strange that throughout the WHOLE Old Testment Jesus isn't
mentioned BY NAME once?????

Isn't it strange that throught the WHOLE Old Testament God is never refered
to as a "trinity"???????

Isn't it strange that God never told Abraham or Moses that he was Jesus of
Nazareth???????????????

###########################################

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall love the
LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
might.

Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)

*[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning the ONE
God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]

#############################################

And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and because
he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him, 'Of all the
commandments, which is the most important?'

Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is one LORD,
and you are to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul
[and all your mind] and with all your energy.'

And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You have
correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside him. And 'to
love him with all one's heart and with all one's mind and with all one's
energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself' is greater than all the
burnt offerings and sacrifices put together."

And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him, "You are
not far from God's domain."

Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version

*[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy 6:4 -5
meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]

#################################################

Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest commandment?????


--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Terry Cross
2009-07-17 23:19:26 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 3:44 pm, "I" <***@home0000493> wrote:
> "Dr. House" wrote:
> >> I do NOT worship any human Mark. I worship God. Who happens to >> be The
> >> Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The Father God, >> or the
> >> Godhead. The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?
> >> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
> >> you are Mark.
>
> > Interesting analogy.
>
> Isn't it strange that throughout the WHOLE Old Testment Jesus isn't
> mentioned BY NAME once?????


Here comes Mark T's Jewish side: Old Testament vs. New Testament, and
Old wins every fall.


> Isn't it strange that throught the WHOLE Old Testament God is never refered
> to as a "trinity"???????


Same comment. Mark T is a Jew.


> Isn't it strange that God never told Abraham or Moses that he was Jesus of
> Nazareth???????????????


God didn't tell Abraham or Moses that he was visiting other peoples in
other lands, either. Now, a real Jew would believe God visits only
Jews and hates Gentiles. What does Mark T believe?

TCross
I
2009-07-17 22:39:26 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> ###########################################
>>>> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall love
>>>> the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with
>>>> all your might.
>>>> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
>>>> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning the
>>>> ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>>>> #############################################
>>>> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
>>>> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him, 'Of
>>>> all the commandments, which is the most important?'
>>>> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is one
>>>> LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your heart >> and
>>>> all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your energy.'
>>>> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You have
>>>> correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside him. And
>>>> 'to love him with all one's heart and with all one's mind and with all
>>>> one's energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself' is greater than
>>>> all the burnt offerings and sacrifices put together."
>>>> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him, "You
>>>> are not far from God's domain."
>>>> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
>>>> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy 6:4 -5
>>>> meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>>>> #################################################
>>>> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest commandment?????
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
>>>> "Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
>>>> "Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New
>>>> Testament
>>>> THEREFORE
>>>> YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord") for
>>>> "YHWH" in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the New
>>>> Testament.
....
>> I note that you cannopt answer my question: "Where is Jesus of Nazareth
>> mentioned in the greatest commandment?????"
> I do NOT worship any human Mark. I worship God. Who happens to be The
> .... Son

If you worship Jesus of Nazareth then you are worhipping a human who is NOT
mentioned in the Greatest Commandment. See above.


> The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?

"The things that you're liable
To read in the bible
Ain't necessarily so." - Porgy & Bess


> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but you
> are Mark.

EXCEPT ... ONLY the Father is mentioned in the Shema and the Greatest
Commandment. See above.


> I am not a pagan and I resent you calling me such.

I am a Christian and resent you saying that I am not.

--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Mordecai
2009-07-18 10:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Abby wrote:

> "I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
> news:4a5fceb3$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> > "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Now a question for you ...........
> >>> ###########################################
> >>> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall
> >>> love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
> >>> and with all your might.
> >>> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
> >>> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning
> >>> the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
> >>> #############################################
> >>> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
> >>> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him,
> >>> 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?'
> >>> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is
> >>> one LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your
> >>> heart >> and all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your
> >>> energy.'
> >>> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You
> >>> have correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside
> >>> him. And 'to love him with all one's heart and with all one's
> >>> mind and with all one's energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as
> >>> oneself' is greater than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices
> >>> put together."
> >>> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him,
> >>> "You are not far from God's domain."
> >>> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
> >>> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy
> >>> 6:4 -5 meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus
> >>> of Nazareth.]
> >>> #################################################
> >>>
> >>> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest
> >>> commandment?????
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
> >>> "Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
> >>> "Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New
> >>> Testament
> >>> THEREFORE
> >>> YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord")
> >>> for "YHWH" in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the
> >>> New Testament.
> > ....
> >> Genesis1:26 (NIV) Then God said Let US make man in OUR
> >> image.....................
> >
> > The royal "we" does not imply a plurality of the One God but is a
> > JEWISH
> > IDIOM for expressing the majesty of God.
> >
> > Do you have any idea what an idiom is?????????
> >
> > I note that you cannopt answer my question: "Where is Jesus of
> > Nazareth mentioned in the greatest commandment?????"
> >
> > The answer, of course, is that Jesus of Nazareth ISN'T mentioned in
> > the greatest commandment.
> >
> > The Jewish Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) does not mention Jesus of
> > Nazareth.
> >
> > Whatever your "trinity" is, it is NOT the One God whom Jesus
> > worshipped and was quoted in the passages above.
> >
> > Why have you chosen to be a pagan worshipping a human as God????
> >
> >
> >> you still act and treat people as though you honor No God at all.
> >> Why is > that? You are so mean.
> >
> > I disagree with Christian fundamentalism therefore I am mean. That
> > makes sense ............ not!
> >
> > You should read Christians such as Martin Luther (with his swear
> > words) or Jonathan Swift or Rabelaise or Ersamus.
> >
> >
> >> I notice you use other publications such as the apocrypha (sp) to
> >> study by.
> >
> > "apocrypha" ????? QUE????
> >
> > The Tanakh (Jewish Publication Society: 1985) is the JEWISH Bible -
> > The Old Testament.
> >
> > Scholars Version of the Five Gospels was created by the 120 scholars
> > in the Jesus Seminar.
> >
> > --
> > MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> > http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
> >
> > MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> > http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
>
> I do NOT worship any human Mark. I worship God. Who happens to be The
> Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The Father God, or the
> Godhead. The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?

Err - because it does not.

>
>
> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
> you are Mark.

I see - so when I, a Jew, pray to god, I am actually praying to jesus also?

Cute.


> I am not a pagan and I resent you calling me such.
> If you wish to call me a fundie, I do not mind. I think its funny as
> do most of us I think, but you are still so mean to people that they
> don't take you seriously because of it. You have become the butt of
> the NG jokes.
>
> You are obviously a smart person, why not use it in a more
> constructive way instead of tearing people down?
>
> Abby

I dunno ...
I have had one person decide that slander and gossip about me - as a good
Christian.
I had one discuss my genitalia.
I have had several treat me with enough lack of human respect and dignity
that I turned away, telling them if they wanted a lamppost to preach to or
piss on ... to choose some other lamppost.
And I have looked to the various "gods and Jesus" by these people and
looked with more than absolute disgust ...
And the real christians with real love looked on with silence.

THESE blasphemous self seeking Christians are the ones who Mark attacks.

So I wonder - who is the one who does the will of the father? The ones who
bring the name of Jesus so low as to be cursed?
Or perchance the one who rebukes these people and says they do not
represent JC and god?

It is very easy to divide according to religion - rather than according to
the ones who seek the will of the father.
After all - you get a real "we are christian spirit" going and turn away
others ...
I seem to remember JC having a real go at the pharisees for this specific
attitude.

--
Mordecai!

When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
I
2009-07-18 22:28:45 UTC
Permalink
"Mordecai" wrote:

>> >>> ###########################################
>> >>> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall
>> >>> love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
>> >>> and with all your might.
>> >>> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
>> >>> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning
>> >>> the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
>> >>> #############################################
>> >>> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
>> >>> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him,
>> >>> 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?'
>> >>> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is
>> >>> one LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your
>> >>> heart >> and all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your
>> >>> energy.'
>> >>> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You
>> >>> have correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside
>> >>> him. And 'to love him with all one's heart and with all one's
>> >>> mind and with all one's energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as
>> >>> oneself' is greater than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices
>> >>> put together."
>> >>> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him,
>> >>> "You are not far from God's domain."
>> >>> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
>> >>> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy
>> >>> 6:4 -5 meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus
>> >>> of Nazareth.]
>> >>> #################################################
>> >>> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest
>> >>> commandment?????
.....
>> I worship God. Who happens to be The
>> Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The Father God, or the
>> Godhead. The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?
>
> Err - because it does not.
>
>> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
>> you are Mark.
>
> I see - so when I, a Jew, pray to god, I am actually praying to jesus
> also?


I found God through studying about Jesus.

The Christian churches have told me a hug lie. Not a small little "white
lie" but a massive life changing lie that affects everything. Clergy have
been in on this lie and continued to spread it for the past 150 years when
it was raised through textual criticism. Clergy learnt differently in their
seminaries but were too afraid to preach it from their pulpits.

When one attends a church service 90% of it is directed at worship of Jesus
as God, 9 % to God the Father and 1% (or less) talk about the "Holy Spirit".
This gives you a very good indication of the important of the persons of the
supposed "trinity" who are supposedly all equal.

IF
all members of the supposed "trinity" were equal
THEN
equal time would be spent on all members

The lie is within all aspects of the Church service - the hymns, the
choruses (Jesus Jingles), the bible readings, the sermon, the prayers, the
stained glass windows. This forces one to be unthinking and listen and read
uncritically and blindly accept what everyone else blindly follows.

The lie is that Jesus is God.

Jesus and God are very different. I can never again confuse the two.
A study of Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 & Mark 12:28-34 placed together cannot be
reconciled if Jesus is God but makes perfect sense if they are different.

The supposed three major monotheistic religions all derive from Judaism.
Christianity added worship of Jesus as God and the "Holy Spirit". Islam
added Mohammed as the last and most important prophet.

Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity because it doesn't add the
worship of a human to the worship of the One God. Judaism and Islam both
rightly criticise Christianity for the worship of Jesus as God.

Both Judaism and Islam have been demonised by Christianity and viewed as the
enemy.

Christianity help spread anti-Semitism through the erroneous labelling of
Jews as "Christ-killers" despite the fact that is was the judicial system of
the Roman Empire that crucified Jesus. This anti-Semitism fed the Nazis and
reached a climax in the Holocaust.

Christianity fought and killed Moslems in the Crusades. Islam is now the
current enemy of Christianity and is fed upon irrational uneducated "urban
legends". The fundamentalist arm of Islam is mistaken for the whole of
Islam just as the fundamemntalist arm of Christianity is mistaken for the
whole of Christianity. Few Christians have ever read the Koran - if they had
they would understand that the fear-filled rhetoric being spread about Islam
is largely incorrect. It is easily checked against what the Koran actually
states.

If one studies the founding religion - Judaism - compared to the two
following religions - Christianity and Islam - one thing stands out
dramatically. Christianity and Islam both misunderstand their founding
religion. Nothing needed to be added to Judaism. It catered for both Jew
and Gentile. Gentiles were catered for in the Noachide laws.

Christians have forgotten that Jesus was Jewish and his ideas can only be
understood within the framework of Judaism. Christians have forgotten that
God is more important than Jesus, the bible or anything else.

I'm about to be a "living book" at our library. The above is part of what I
am sharing.


--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Mordecai
2009-07-19 02:23:54 UTC
Permalink
I wrote:

> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
> >> >>> ###########################################
> >> >>> Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. You shall
> >> >>> love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
> >> >>> and with all your might.
> >> >>> Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 (Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society: 1985)
> >> >>> *[NOTE: "LORD" is substituted for the tetragrammaton YHWH meaning
> >> >>> the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]
> >> >>> #############################################
> >> >>> And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and
> >> >>> because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him,
> >> >>> 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?'
> >> >>> Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is
> >> >>> one LORD, and you are to love the LORD your God with all your
> >> >>> heart >> and all your soul [and all your mind] and with all your
> >> >>> energy.'
> >> >>> And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You
> >> >>> have correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside
> >> >>> him. And 'to love him with all one's heart and with all one's
> >> >>> mind and with all one's energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as
> >> >>> oneself' is greater than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices
> >> >>> put together."
> >> >>> And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him,
> >> >>> "You are not far from God's domain."
> >> >>> Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version
> >> >>> *[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy
> >> >>> 6:4 -5 meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus
> >> >>> of Nazareth.]
> >> >>> #################################################
> >> >>> Where is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned in the greatest
> >> >>> commandment?????
> .....
> >> I worship God. Who happens to be The
> >> Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one. Called The Father God, or the
> >> Godhead. The Bible talks about it, how can you ignore it?
> >
> > Err - because it does not.
> >
> >> Its kind of like you are a husband, father and a son, all in one but
> >> you are Mark.
> >
> > I see - so when I, a Jew, pray to god, I am actually praying to jesus
> > also?
>
> I found God through studying about Jesus.
>
> The Christian churches have told me a hug lie. Not a small little "white
> lie" but a massive life changing lie that affects everything. Clergy have
> been in on this lie and continued to spread it for the past 150 years when
> it was raised through textual criticism. Clergy learnt differently in their
> seminaries but were too afraid to preach it from their pulpits.
>
> When one attends a church service 90% of it is directed at worship of Jesus
> as God, 9 % to God the Father and 1% (or less) talk about the "Holy Spirit".
> This gives you a very good indication of the important of the persons of the
> supposed "trinity" who are supposedly all equal.
>
> IF
> all members of the supposed "trinity" were equal
> THEN
> equal time would be spent on all members
>
> The lie is within all aspects of the Church service - the hymns, the
> choruses (Jesus Jingles), the bible readings, the sermon, the prayers, the
> stained glass windows. This forces one to be unthinking and listen and read
> uncritically and blindly accept what everyone else blindly follows.
>
> The lie is that Jesus is God.
>
> Jesus and God are very different. I can never again confuse the two.
> A study of Deuteronomy 6:4 -5 & Mark 12:28-34 placed together cannot be
> reconciled if Jesus is God but makes perfect sense if they are different.
>
> The supposed three major monotheistic religions all derive from Judaism.
> Christianity added worship of Jesus as God and the "Holy Spirit". Islam
> added Mohammed as the last and most important prophet.
>
> Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity because it doesn't add the
> worship of a human to the worship of the One God. Judaism and Islam both
> rightly criticise Christianity for the worship of Jesus as God.
>
> Both Judaism and Islam have been demonised by Christianity and viewed as the
> enemy.
>
> Christianity help spread anti-Semitism through the erroneous labelling of
> Jews as "Christ-killers" despite the fact that is was the judicial system of
> the Roman Empire that crucified Jesus. This anti-Semitism fed the Nazis and
> reached a climax in the Holocaust.
>
> Christianity fought and killed Moslems in the Crusades. Islam is now the
> current enemy of Christianity and is fed upon irrational uneducated "urban
> legends". The fundamentalist arm of Islam is mistaken for the whole of
> Islam just as the fundamemntalist arm of Christianity is mistaken for the
> whole of Christianity. Few Christians have ever read the Koran - if they had
> they would understand that the fear-filled rhetoric being spread about Islam
> is largely incorrect. It is easily checked against what the Koran actually
> states.
>
> If one studies the founding religion - Judaism - compared to the two
> following religions - Christianity and Islam - one thing stands out
> dramatically. Christianity and Islam both misunderstand their founding
> religion. Nothing needed to be added to Judaism. It catered for both Jew
> and Gentile. Gentiles were catered for in the Noachide laws.
>
> Christians have forgotten that Jesus was Jewish and his ideas can only be
> understood within the framework of Judaism. Christians have forgotten that
> God is more important than Jesus, the bible or anything else.
>
> I'm about to be a "living book" at our library. The above is part of what I
> am sharing.
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

I agree.

However, my take on the current situation is different.
You are being sent to try to get some Christians to repentance.
This is because this is "just before the time of judgement" and the religion is
being changed to allow Jews in.
Not that Jews will go in ... that is not the actual goal. But it is true enough
for now.

You might remember the "mock shema" .."Hear you people of Atlantis, Fred your
god, Fred is one."
And how, when we applied this to the nicene creed - it fell apart?
And how we then changed the definition of the word god yet again and the whole
returned to perfect logic?

Thus you were aware that Trinity is language - nothing more.
You knew what Christians mean by the word god ... and what the bible means also.

BTW - there is power in knowing what "the christians mean" when they do not.

Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding we give
up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get to JC is
to "give up their primary advantage."

You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are supposed
to go to the G_d using the name father ...
And Abbey cannot even formulate an answer when I discuss the name of G_d. She is
not alone. She is with about 90% of the christians.

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses but we will remember "THE NAME" of
the lord our god.

Lack of knowledge about names implies they cannot answer any question with
names.

I am teaching you more about the power of ... names.
You are being given tools for your task.
"Names" is one such tool.

It has been long enough for your next lesson in names.
And as you can see - those whom you could not convince are dumbfounded as they
have neither answers - nor the power to dispute.
You are going to add this tool to your toolbox.

But you will spend many hours perfecting the use of this tool.
I remember a carpenter telling me about hammers. How the reason most hammers are
bad is because they are bad hammers - the head of the hammer should be flat and
not concave and cheap hammers have concave heads.
But even with a good hammer - the first training is to give the apprentice some
wood and a pile of nails and tell him to hammer thousands of nails into the off
cuts of wood.
It takes time to use even a tool like a hammer.

You have seen a demonstration of names.

Now ** you ** can go and learn.
It will take time, but you have time.

--
Mordecai!

When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
I
2009-07-19 05:08:37 UTC
Permalink
"Mordecai" wrote:

> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding we
> give
> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get to
> JC is
> to "give up their primary advantage."

When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
"do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.


> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...

... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden for
Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
Christians.


> Lack of knowledge about names


In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".

That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.

Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of the
time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".

Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre & Spottiswoods:
1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a new Christian in
the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the Tallith - "Blessed
art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1. The same phrase is
repeated many times thereafter right up to the last "Night Prayer for Young
Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord
our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God,
King of the universe".

The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and the
"our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews and not
to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean the
Christian's "Father" and "Lord".

Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
"Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".

Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in a
concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the Old
Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the New
Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus". (Note: The
Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be either "lord"
or "Lord".)

Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely scrupulous
you are in all religious matters,
23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact,
the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is himself
Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines made by human
hands.
25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life and
breath -- to everyone.
26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human race
so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times and
limits of their habitation.
27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by feeling
their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is not far from
any of us,
28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for thinking
that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
carved and designed by a man.
30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the one I
proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.

Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in it
is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of the
universe".

Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like
anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a
man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly impossible
to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of Nazareth HAS had
thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like Jesus.

"The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
Jesus of Nazareth.

"The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
Jesus.

--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Mordecai
2009-07-19 05:47:21 UTC
Permalink
I wrote:

> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
> > Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
> > One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
> > Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding we
> > give
> > up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get to
> > JC is
> > to "give up their primary advantage."
>
> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>
> > You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
> > supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>
> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
> It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden for
> Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
> Christians.
>
> > Lack of knowledge about names
>
> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>
> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
> likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of the
> time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>
> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
> Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
> Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre & Spottiswoods:
> 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a new Christian in
> the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the Tallith - "Blessed
> art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1. The same phrase is
> repeated many times thereafter right up to the last "Night Prayer for Young
> Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord
> our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God,
> King of the universe".
>
> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and the
> "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews and not
> to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean the
> Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>
> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
> "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>
> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
> for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in a
> concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the Old
> Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the New
> Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus". (Note: The
> Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be either "lord"
> or "Lord".)
>
> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
> this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely scrupulous
> you are in all religious matters,
> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
> noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact,
> the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is himself
> Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines made by human
> hands.
> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
> hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life and
> breath -- to everyone.
> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human race
> so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times and
> limits of their habitation.
> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by feeling
> their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is not far from
> any of us,
> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
> some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for thinking
> that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
> carved and designed by a man.
> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the one I
> proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>
> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in it
> is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of the
> universe".
>
> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like
> anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a
> man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly impossible
> to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of Nazareth HAS had
> thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
> carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like Jesus.
>
> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
> Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
> Jesus.
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

Excellent.
Not the path I travelled ... but who cares about that?
If you travel, and observe things along the way - then these things are either
real or delusion.

If another finds them using a different method, and different data - then what
one observes is true. Or likely true.

Generally, this is the standard of proof used in science ... but even this is
not considered absolute in science as one contradictory piece of data can
overthrow any theory. Still - it is a very good start and is considered
acceptable until any errors are revealed.

As the truth is ... not what I think, or you think, or my theory or your theory,
I will adapt to whatever is found.
I did not "camp" at the names of G_d.

I notice others seems to have made a camp there and has not seemed to progress
on.
This is not necessarily wrong. Some are called to make a detailed study on some
of the wonders.

I just scout out what I find interesting.
And I like the fact you have found the same thing in other ways.

Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been shown one
set of ideas and not others ... like these.
That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians - shove a
finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their mind in neutral, and
their mouth on high speed.

I sort of expect this thread to die now.
People are probably a tad shell shocked.

Now ... another thought.
This is for you - not me.

Consider the roman centurion who asked for a word to be sent ...
It is about authority.
The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
JC is sent.
JC is not omniscient.
JC is not in charge.

By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the definition of
god, then JC is not god.
You might notice - we discussed the real definition used by the council of
nicea.

None the less, the council actually went and defined the characteristics of
their deity.
But they did not use this definition - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
therefore JC is not god.
They used their own unspoken definition - and we have exposed the definition
they "really" used.


--
Mordecai!

When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
I
2009-07-19 09:46:49 UTC
Permalink
"Mordecai" wrote:

> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their mind in
> neutral, and
> their mouth on high speed.
>
> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
> People are probably a tad shell shocked.


Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.

I don't think they speak the same language.

> the Centurian
...
> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
> JC is sent.
> JC is not omniscient.
> JC is not in charge.
>
> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
> definition of
> god, then JC is not god.
...
> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
> therefore JC is not god.


This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)

Here is something interesting ..............

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 8

8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he comes; to
my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as great
as this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Luke 7

6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir, do not
put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
roof;
7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
be cured by your giving the word.
8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he comes; to
my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have
I found faith as great as this.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's gospel (the
earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).

Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is the one I
proclaim to you."

Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"

In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the one who
sent me.'

The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come from
John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical Jesus ever
stated. Even so there is a gem ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
greater than the one who sent him.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 13:16 (Scholars Version)

slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never superior to
their senders.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.

SO ...........

"no servant is greater than his master"

No servant of God is greater than God.

"no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"

No messenger of God is greater than God.

"slaves are never better than their masters"

No slave of God is better than God.

"messengers are never superior to their senders"

No messenger of God is superior to God.

SUMMARISED AS

No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to God.

IF
Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
THEN
Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God

Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????

Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" - Jews. Mat
15:24

Jesus states that God has sent him ........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mat 10:40
Mar 9:37
Luk 9:48
Luk 10:16
Jhn 3:17
Jhn 4:34
Jhn 5:23
Jhn 5:24
Jhn 5:36
Jhn 5:37
Jhn 6:29
Jhn 6:38
Jhn 6:39
Jhn 6:40
Jhn 6:44
Jhn 6:57
Jhn 7:16
Jhn 7:28
Jhn 7:29
Jhn 7:33
Jhn 8:16
Jhn 8:18
Jhn 8:26
Jhn 8:29
Jhn 8:42
Jhn 9:4
Jhn 11:42
Jhn 12:45
Jhn 12:49
Jhn 13:20
Jhn 14:24
Jhn 15:21
Jhn 16:5
Jhn 17:3
Jhn 17:18
Jhn 17:21
Jhn 17:23
Jhn 17:25

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.

Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God sending
him ....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Luk 4:18
17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. Unrolling the
scroll he found the place where it is written:
18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to bring
the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to
captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant and sat
down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being fulfilled today
even while you are listening.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Jesus sends out others

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Luk 9:2
Luk 10:1
Luk 22:8
Luk 22:35
Jhn 17:18
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'

Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life from the
Father"

Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge only as I
am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do not my own
will but the will of him who sent me."

Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one who sent
me"

MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
####################################################
Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and believes
in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgement
such a person has passed from death to life.

Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and
Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
###################################

How does one obtain eternal life?

Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.

COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY

"As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life from
the Father"

Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus with a
message. That message is ...

####################################################
Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and BELIEVES
IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being brought to
judgement such a person has passed from death to life.

Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and
Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.

"As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life from
the Father"

###################################

Thank you, Mordecai!

I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to nothing
that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it does contain a
profound truth about Jesus and God.

I wonder if anyone can answer this post.

--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Mordecai
2009-07-19 10:40:28 UTC
Permalink
I wrote:

> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
> > Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
> > shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
> > That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
> > shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their mind in
> > neutral, and
> > their mouth on high speed.
> >
> > I sort of expect this thread to die now.
> > People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>
> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>
> I don't think they speak the same language.
>
> > the Centurian
> ...
> > The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
> > JC is sent.
> > JC is not omniscient.
> > JC is not in charge.
> >
> > By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
> > definition of
> > god, then JC is not god.
> ...
> > - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
> > therefore JC is not god.
>
> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>
> Here is something interesting ..............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Matthew 8
>
> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he comes; to
> my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as great
> as this.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luke 7
>
> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir, do not
> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof;
> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
> be cured by your giving the word.
> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he comes; to
> my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have
> I found faith as great as this.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's gospel (the
> earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>
> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is the one I
> proclaim to you."
>
> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>
> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the one who
> sent me.'
>
> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come from
> John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical Jesus ever
> stated. Even so there is a gem ....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
> greater than the one who sent him.'
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>
> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never superior to
> their senders.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>
> SO ...........
>
> "no servant is greater than his master"
>
> No servant of God is greater than God.
>
> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>
> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>
> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>
> No slave of God is better than God.
>
> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>
> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>
> SUMMARISED AS
>
> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to God.
>
> IF
> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
> THEN
> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>
> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>
> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" - Jews. Mat
> 15:24
>
> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mat 10:40
> Mar 9:37
> Luk 9:48
> Luk 10:16
> Jhn 3:17
> Jhn 4:34
> Jhn 5:23
> Jhn 5:24
> Jhn 5:36
> Jhn 5:37
> Jhn 6:29
> Jhn 6:38
> Jhn 6:39
> Jhn 6:40
> Jhn 6:44
> Jhn 6:57
> Jhn 7:16
> Jhn 7:28
> Jhn 7:29
> Jhn 7:33
> Jhn 8:16
> Jhn 8:18
> Jhn 8:26
> Jhn 8:29
> Jhn 8:42
> Jhn 9:4
> Jhn 11:42
> Jhn 12:45
> Jhn 12:49
> Jhn 13:20
> Jhn 14:24
> Jhn 15:21
> Jhn 16:5
> Jhn 17:3
> Jhn 17:18
> Jhn 17:21
> Jhn 17:23
> Jhn 17:25
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>
> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God sending
> him ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 4:18
> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. Unrolling the
> scroll he found the place where it is written:
> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to bring
> the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to
> captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant and sat
> down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being fulfilled today
> even while you are listening.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jesus sends out others
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 9:2
> Luk 10:1
> Luk 22:8
> Luk 22:35
> Jhn 17:18
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>
> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life from the
> Father"
>
> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge only as I
> am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do not my own
> will but the will of him who sent me."
>
> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one who sent
> me"
>
> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and believes
> in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgement
> such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and
> Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
> ###################################
>
> How does one obtain eternal life?
>
> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>
> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life from
> the Father"
>
> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus with a
> message. That message is ...
>
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and BELIEVES
> IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being brought to
> judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and
> Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life from
> the Father"
>
> ###################################
>
> Thank you, Mordecai!
>
> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to nothing
> that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it does contain a
> profound truth about Jesus and God.
>
> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

John is one of the more profound of the books, even though there are manifestly
two authors, one who comes to JC as coming in his own name - the other coming in
the name of him who sent him.
I think you have found a lot of references to the "he who sent him" because,
this is what we were discussing.

The total is astonishing - isn't it?

Go and find "in his own name" references - and that are trying to corkscrew
these ideas into the accusation/own name scenario.
Every last one brings accusation, condemnation and blame. One way, single
answers simple minded - limited, small.

Go and find the "one who sent" and the attitude is better, hope, and good. More
than one way - open promises.

Now, I do not know much about the biblical criticism but I know enough about
psychology to make some ... statements.
1) the original book was written about being sent and changed to coming in his
own name.
2) the original book was about open acceptance and was edited to condemnation
and judgement
3) the original book was straight, the latter editor introduced mysticism and
other thoughts.
4) The original book may well have been penned by John. But the new book is so
... different ... that it can be said to be rewritten.
5) I have no idea when it was originally penned but as I suspect it was indeed
written by John - I would guess middle of his life. This is because John was
into love, acceptance and the better way.

It brings out the hope which would allow a change in a Jew into a new way ...
and rewritten by another who actively (though probably unconsciously) barred up
the path with their attitude.

The book of John we have today? They say 120 ACE. I suspect later than this.
The original? I would guess about 60-70 ACE
And to me? It is instrumental as portraying the attitudes of the earliest church
and has most interesting ideas about JC ...

But separating out the crap by the second editor is a real pain in the ass!

What is left is a very heretical christianity totally unacceptable to the
Christian community.
Imagine loving and not condemning?
Better, not only?
Father, not son?
Good deeds and not gratification?

And ... promises which allow people to say why there were advantages to being a
christian!
As I say ... heresy.

No wonder it had to be rewritten and made into judgement and condemnation.


--
Mordecai!

When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
I
2009-07-20 01:58:44 UTC
Permalink
"Mordecai" wrote:

>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>> silent.
>> I don't think they speak the same language.
....
>> ####################################################
>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; >> without being
>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from
>> death to life.
>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE >> GOD,
>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>> from the Father"
>> ###################################
...
> What is left is a very heretical christianity totally unacceptable to the
> Christian community.
> Imagine loving and not condemning?
> Better, not only?
> Father, not son?
> Good deeds and not gratification?


Again not a bite from others.

Like walking over a treasure in a field.
dolf
2009-07-19 11:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Mark Tindall whilst you behaviour continues to show collusion with
others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.

I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
for you, this request is not negotiable.

- dolf

--- n. "He (God) opens".
--- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
--- n. "Rest".
--- burdens, tasks.
--- to make war

I <***@home0000498> wrote:
> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their mind in
>> neutral, and
>> their mouth on high speed.
>>
>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>
>
> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>
> I don't think they speak the same language.
>
>> the Centurian
> ...
>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>> JC is sent.
>> JC is not omniscient.
>> JC is not in charge.
>>
>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>> definition of
>> god, then JC is not god.
> ...
>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>> therefore JC is not god.
>
>
> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>
> Here is something interesting ..............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Matthew 8
>
> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he comes; to
> my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as great
> as this.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luke 7
>
> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir, do not
> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof;
> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
> be cured by your giving the word.
> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he comes; to
> my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have
> I found faith as great as this.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's gospel (the
> earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>
> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is the one I
> proclaim to you."
>
> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>
> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the one who
> sent me.'
>
> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come from
> John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical Jesus ever
> stated. Even so there is a gem ....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
> greater than the one who sent him.'
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>
> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never superior to
> their senders.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>
> SO ...........
>
> "no servant is greater than his master"
>
> No servant of God is greater than God.
>
> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>
> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>
> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>
> No slave of God is better than God.
>
> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>
> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>
> SUMMARISED AS
>
> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to God.
>
> IF
> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
> THEN
> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>
> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>
> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" - Jews. Mat
> 15:24
>
> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mat 10:40
> Mar 9:37
> Luk 9:48
> Luk 10:16
> Jhn 3:17
> Jhn 4:34
> Jhn 5:23
> Jhn 5:24
> Jhn 5:36
> Jhn 5:37
> Jhn 6:29
> Jhn 6:38
> Jhn 6:39
> Jhn 6:40
> Jhn 6:44
> Jhn 6:57
> Jhn 7:16
> Jhn 7:28
> Jhn 7:29
> Jhn 7:33
> Jhn 8:16
> Jhn 8:18
> Jhn 8:26
> Jhn 8:29
> Jhn 8:42
> Jhn 9:4
> Jhn 11:42
> Jhn 12:45
> Jhn 12:49
> Jhn 13:20
> Jhn 14:24
> Jhn 15:21
> Jhn 16:5
> Jhn 17:3
> Jhn 17:18
> Jhn 17:21
> Jhn 17:23
> Jhn 17:25
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>
> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God sending
> him ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 4:18
> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. Unrolling the
> scroll he found the place where it is written:
> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to bring
> the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to
> captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant and sat
> down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being fulfilled today
> even while you are listening.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> Jesus sends out others
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 9:2
> Luk 10:1
> Luk 22:8
> Luk 22:35
> Jhn 17:18
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>
> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life from the
> Father"
>
> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge only as I
> am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do not my own
> will but the will of him who sent me."
>
> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one who sent
> me"
>
> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and believes
> in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgement
> such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and
> Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
> ###################################
>
> How does one obtain eternal life?
>
> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>
> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life from
> the Father"
>
> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus with a
> message. That message is ...
>
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and BELIEVES
> IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being brought to
> judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and
> Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life from
> the Father"
>
> ###################################
>
> Thank you, Mordecai!
>
> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to nothing
> that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it does contain a
> profound truth about Jesus and God.
>
> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>
dolf
2009-07-19 12:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Mark Tindall whilst you behaviour continues to show collusion with
others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.

I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
for you, this request is not negotiable.

- dolf

#498
--- n. "He (God) opens".
--- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
--- n. "Rest".
--- burdens, tasks.
--- to make war

I <***@home0000498> wrote:
> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
mind in
>> neutral, and
>> their mouth on high speed.
>>
>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>
>
> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>
> I don't think they speak the same language.
>
>> the Centurian
> ...
>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>> JC is sent.
>> JC is not omniscient.
>> JC is not in charge.
>>
>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>> definition of
>> god, then JC is not god.
> ...
>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>> therefore JC is not god.
>
>
> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>
> Here is something interesting ..............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Matthew 8
>
> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
great
> as this.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luke 7
>
> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
do not
> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof;
> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
> be cured by your giving the word.
> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
Israel have
> I found faith as great as this.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>
> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
the one I proclaim to you."
>
> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>
> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
one who sent me.'
>
> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
greater than the one who sent him.'
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>
> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
superior to their senders.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>
> SO ...........
>
> "no servant is greater than his master"
>
> No servant of God is greater than God.
>
> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>
> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>
> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>
> No slave of God is better than God.
>
> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>
> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>
> SUMMARISED AS
>
> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
God.
>
> IF
> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
> THEN
> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>
> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>
> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
Jews. Mat 15:24
>
> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mat 10:40
> Mar 9:37
> Luk 9:48
> Luk 10:16
> Jhn 3:17
> Jhn 4:34
> Jhn 5:23
> Jhn 5:24
> Jhn 5:36
> Jhn 5:37
> Jhn 6:29
> Jhn 6:38
> Jhn 6:39
> Jhn 6:40
> Jhn 6:44
> Jhn 6:57
> Jhn 7:16
> Jhn 7:28
> Jhn 7:29
> Jhn 7:33
> Jhn 8:16
> Jhn 8:18
> Jhn 8:26
> Jhn 8:29
> Jhn 8:42
> Jhn 9:4
> Jhn 11:42
> Jhn 12:45
> Jhn 12:49
> Jhn 13:20
> Jhn 14:24
> Jhn 15:21
> Jhn 16:5
> Jhn 17:3
> Jhn 17:18
> Jhn 17:21
> Jhn 17:23
> Jhn 17:25
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>
> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
sending him ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 4:18
> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> Jesus sends out others
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 9:2
> Luk 10:1
> Luk 22:8
> Luk 22:35
> Jhn 17:18
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>
> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
from the Father"
>
> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>
> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
who sent me"
>
> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
> ###################################
>
> How does one obtain eternal life?
>
> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>
> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
from the Father"
>
> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
with a message. That message is ...
>
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
from the Father"
>
> ###################################
>
> Thank you, Mordecai!
>
> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>
> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>

#496
--- reproach.
--- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
--- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
--- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
--- reign
--- a kingdom, realm
--- royally, in royal state
--- his precepts.
--- they make deep a revolt.

I <***@home0000496> wrote:
> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding we
>> give
>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get to
>> JC is
>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>
> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>
>
>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>
> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
> It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden for
> Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
> Christians.
>
>
>> Lack of knowledge about names
>
>
> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>
> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
> likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of the
> time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>
> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
> Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
> Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre & Spottiswoods:
> 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a new Christian in
> the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the Tallith - "Blessed
> art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1. The same phrase is
> repeated many times thereafter right up to the last "Night Prayer for Young
> Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord
> our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God,
> King of the universe".
>
> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and the
> "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews and not
> to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean the
> Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>
> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
> "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>
> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
> for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in a
> concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the Old
> Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the New
> Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus". (Note: The
> Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be either "lord"
> or "Lord".)
>
> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
> this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely scrupulous
> you are in all religious matters,
> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
> noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact,
> the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is himself
> Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines made by human
> hands.
> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
> hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life and
> breath -- to everyone.
> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human race
> so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times and
> limits of their habitation.
> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by feeling
> their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is not far from
> any of us,
> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
> some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for thinking
> that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
> carved and designed by a man.
> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the one I
> proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>
> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in it
> is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of the
> universe".
>
> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like
> anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a
> man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly impossible
> to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of Nazareth HAS had
> thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
> carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like Jesus.
>
> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
> Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
> Jesus.
>
dolf
2009-07-19 12:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.

I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
for you, this request is not negotiable.

- dolf

#498
--- n. "He (God) opens".
--- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
--- n. "Rest".
--- burdens, tasks.
--- to make war

I <***@home0000498> wrote:
> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
mind in
>> neutral, and
>> their mouth on high speed.
>>
>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>
>
> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>
> I don't think they speak the same language.
>
>> the Centurian
> ...
>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>> JC is sent.
>> JC is not omniscient.
>> JC is not in charge.
>>
>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>> definition of
>> god, then JC is not god.
> ...
>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>> therefore JC is not god.
>
>
> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>
> Here is something interesting ..............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Matthew 8
>
> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
great
> as this.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luke 7
>
> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
do not
> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
> roof;
> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
> be cured by your giving the word.
> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
Israel have
> I found faith as great as this.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>
> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
the one I proclaim to you."
>
> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>
> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
one who sent me.'
>
> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
greater than the one who sent him.'
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>
> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
superior to their senders.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>
> SO ...........
>
> "no servant is greater than his master"
>
> No servant of God is greater than God.
>
> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>
> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>
> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>
> No slave of God is better than God.
>
> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>
> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>
> SUMMARISED AS
>
> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
God.
>
> IF
> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
> THEN
> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>
> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>
> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
Jews. Mat 15:24
>
> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mat 10:40
> Mar 9:37
> Luk 9:48
> Luk 10:16
> Jhn 3:17
> Jhn 4:34
> Jhn 5:23
> Jhn 5:24
> Jhn 5:36
> Jhn 5:37
> Jhn 6:29
> Jhn 6:38
> Jhn 6:39
> Jhn 6:40
> Jhn 6:44
> Jhn 6:57
> Jhn 7:16
> Jhn 7:28
> Jhn 7:29
> Jhn 7:33
> Jhn 8:16
> Jhn 8:18
> Jhn 8:26
> Jhn 8:29
> Jhn 8:42
> Jhn 9:4
> Jhn 11:42
> Jhn 12:45
> Jhn 12:49
> Jhn 13:20
> Jhn 14:24
> Jhn 15:21
> Jhn 16:5
> Jhn 17:3
> Jhn 17:18
> Jhn 17:21
> Jhn 17:23
> Jhn 17:25
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>
> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
sending him ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 4:18
> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> Jesus sends out others
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Luk 9:2
> Luk 10:1
> Luk 22:8
> Luk 22:35
> Jhn 17:18
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>
> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
from the Father"
>
> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>
> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
who sent me"
>
> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
> ###################################
>
> How does one obtain eternal life?
>
> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>
> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
from the Father"
>
> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
with a message. That message is ...
>
> ####################################################
> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>
> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>
> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
from the Father"
>
> ###################################
>
> Thank you, Mordecai!
>
> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>
> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>

#496
--- reproach.
--- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
--- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
--- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
--- reign
--- a kingdom, realm
--- royally, in royal state
--- his precepts.
--- they make deep a revolt.

I <***@home0000496> wrote:
> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding we
>> give
>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get to
>> JC is
>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>
> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>
>
>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>
> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
> It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden for
> Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
> Christians.
>
>
>> Lack of knowledge about names
>
>
> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>
> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
> likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of the
> time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>
> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
> Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
> Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre & Spottiswoods:
> 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a new Christian in
> the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the Tallith - "Blessed
> art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1. The same phrase is
> repeated many times thereafter right up to the last "Night Prayer for Young
> Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord
> our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God,
> King of the universe".
>
> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and the
> "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews and not
> to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean the
> Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>
> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
> "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>
> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
> for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in a
> concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the Old
> Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the New
> Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus". (Note: The
> Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be either "lord"
> or "Lord".)
>
> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
> this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely scrupulous
> you are in all religious matters,
> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
> noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact,
> the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is himself
> Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines made by human
> hands.
> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
> hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life and
> breath -- to everyone.
> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human race
> so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times and
> limits of their habitation.
> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by feeling
> their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is not far from
> any of us,
> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
> some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for thinking
> that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
> carved and designed by a man.
> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the one I
> proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>
> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in it
> is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of the
> universe".
>
> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like
> anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a
> man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly impossible
> to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of Nazareth HAS had
> thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone that has been
> carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like Jesus.
>
> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
> Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
> Jesus.
>
Carl
2009-07-20 04:34:18 UTC
Permalink
And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week, you
show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical treatment
as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or others. I pray
you get the medical help you need soon.

And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
"fascist" and "fascism."

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

"dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>
> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>
> - dolf
>
> #498
> --- n. "He (God) opens".
> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
> --- n. "Rest".
> --- burdens, tasks.
> --- to make war
>
> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>
>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
> mind in
>>> neutral, and
>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>
>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>
>>
>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>>
>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>
>>> the Centurian
>> ...
>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>> JC is sent.
>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>
>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>> definition of
>>> god, then JC is not god.
>> ...
>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>
>>
>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>
>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Matthew 8
>>
>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
> great
>> as this.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Luke 7
>>
>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
> do not
>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
>> roof;
>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>> be cured by your giving the word.
>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
> Israel have
>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>
>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
> the one I proclaim to you."
>>
>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>
>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
> one who sent me.'
>>
>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
> greater than the one who sent him.'
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>
>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
> superior to their senders.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>
>> SO ...........
>>
>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>
>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>
>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>
>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>
>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>
>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>
>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>
>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>
>> SUMMARISED AS
>>
>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
> God.
>>
>> IF
>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>> THEN
>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>
>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>
>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>
>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Mat 10:40
>> Mar 9:37
>> Luk 9:48
>> Luk 10:16
>> Jhn 3:17
>> Jhn 4:34
>> Jhn 5:23
>> Jhn 5:24
>> Jhn 5:36
>> Jhn 5:37
>> Jhn 6:29
>> Jhn 6:38
>> Jhn 6:39
>> Jhn 6:40
>> Jhn 6:44
>> Jhn 6:57
>> Jhn 7:16
>> Jhn 7:28
>> Jhn 7:29
>> Jhn 7:33
>> Jhn 8:16
>> Jhn 8:18
>> Jhn 8:26
>> Jhn 8:29
>> Jhn 8:42
>> Jhn 9:4
>> Jhn 11:42
>> Jhn 12:45
>> Jhn 12:49
>> Jhn 13:20
>> Jhn 14:24
>> Jhn 15:21
>> Jhn 16:5
>> Jhn 17:3
>> Jhn 17:18
>> Jhn 17:21
>> Jhn 17:23
>> Jhn 17:25
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>
>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
> sending him ....
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Luk 4:18
>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> Jesus sends out others
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Luk 9:2
>> Luk 10:1
>> Luk 22:8
>> Luk 22:35
>> Jhn 17:18
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>
>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
> from the Father"
>>
>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>
>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
> who sent me"
>>
>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>> ####################################################
>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>
>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>> ###################################
>>
>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>
>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>
>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>
>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
> from the Father"
>>
>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
> with a message. That message is ...
>>
>> ####################################################
>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>
>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>
>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
> from the Father"
>>
>> ###################################
>>
>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>
>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>
>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>
>
> #496
> --- reproach.
> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
> --- reign
> --- a kingdom, realm
> --- royally, in royal state
> --- his precepts.
> --- they make deep a revolt.
>
> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>
>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding
>>> we give
>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get
>>> to JC is
>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>
>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>
>>
>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>
>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
>> It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden
>> for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
>> Christians.
>>
>>
>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>
>>
>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>
>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>
>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
>> likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of
>> the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>
>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
>> Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
>> Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the
>> Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1.
>> The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the last
>> "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema
>> "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed
>> art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>
>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews
>> and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean
>> the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>
>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
>> "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>
>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
>> for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in
>> a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the
>> Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the
>> New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus".
>> (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be
>> either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>
>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
>> this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
>> noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>> made by human hands.
>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
>> hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life
>> and breath -- to everyone.
>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times
>> and limits of their habitation.
>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>> not far from any of us,
>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
>> some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that
>> has been carved and designed by a man.
>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>
>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in
>> it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of
>> the universe".
>>
>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed
>> by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly
>> impossible to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of
>> Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone
>> that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like
>> Jesus.
>>
>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
>> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
>> Jesus of Nazareth.
>>
>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
>> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
>> Jesus.
>>
dolf
2009-07-20 06:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
Judaism and Christian identity.

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html

Carl wrote:
> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week, you
> show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical treatment
> as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or others. I pray
> you get the medical help you need soon.
>
> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
> "fascist" and "fascism."
>
> May God bless,
> Carl
> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>
> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>
>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>
>> - dolf
>>
>> #498
>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>> --- n. "Rest".
>> --- burdens, tasks.
>> --- to make war
>>
>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>> mind in
>>>> neutral, and
>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>
>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>
>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>>>
>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>
>>>> the Centurian
>>> ...
>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>>> JC is sent.
>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>
>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>> definition of
>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>> ...
>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>
>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>
>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Matthew 8
>>>
>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>> great
>>> as this.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Luke 7
>>>
>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>> do not
>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
>>> roof;
>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>> Israel have
>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>
>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>> one who sent me.'
>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>
>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>> superior to their senders.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>
>>> SO ...........
>>>
>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>
>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>
>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>
>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>
>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>
>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>
>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>
>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>
>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>
>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>> God.
>>> IF
>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>> THEN
>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>
>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>
>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Mat 10:40
>>> Mar 9:37
>>> Luk 9:48
>>> Luk 10:16
>>> Jhn 3:17
>>> Jhn 4:34
>>> Jhn 5:23
>>> Jhn 5:24
>>> Jhn 5:36
>>> Jhn 5:37
>>> Jhn 6:29
>>> Jhn 6:38
>>> Jhn 6:39
>>> Jhn 6:40
>>> Jhn 6:44
>>> Jhn 6:57
>>> Jhn 7:16
>>> Jhn 7:28
>>> Jhn 7:29
>>> Jhn 7:33
>>> Jhn 8:16
>>> Jhn 8:18
>>> Jhn 8:26
>>> Jhn 8:29
>>> Jhn 8:42
>>> Jhn 9:4
>>> Jhn 11:42
>>> Jhn 12:45
>>> Jhn 12:49
>>> Jhn 13:20
>>> Jhn 14:24
>>> Jhn 15:21
>>> Jhn 16:5
>>> Jhn 17:3
>>> Jhn 17:18
>>> Jhn 17:21
>>> Jhn 17:23
>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>
>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>> sending him ....
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Luk 4:18
>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Luk 9:2
>>> Luk 10:1
>>> Luk 22:8
>>> Luk 22:35
>>> Jhn 17:18
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>
>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>> from the Father"
>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>> who sent me"
>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>> ####################################################
>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>> ###################################
>>>
>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>
>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>
>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>
>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>> from the Father"
>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>> with a message. That message is ...
>>> ####################################################
>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>> from the Father"
>>> ###################################
>>>
>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>
>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>
>> #496
>> --- reproach.
>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>> --- reign
>> --- a kingdom, realm
>> --- royally, in royal state
>> --- his precepts.
>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>
>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding
>>>> we give
>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get
>>>> to JC is
>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>>
>>>
>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
>>> It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden
>>> for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
>>> Christians.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>
>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>
>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>
>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
>>> likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of
>>> the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>
>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
>>> Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
>>> Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the
>>> Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1.
>>> The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the last
>>> "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema
>>> "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed
>>> art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>>
>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews
>>> and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean
>>> the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>
>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
>>> "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>
>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
>>> for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in
>>> a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the
>>> Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the
>>> New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus".
>>> (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be
>>> either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>
>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
>>> this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
>>> noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>>> made by human hands.
>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
>>> hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life
>>> and breath -- to everyone.
>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times
>>> and limits of their habitation.
>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>>> not far from any of us,
>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
>>> some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that
>>> has been carved and designed by a man.
>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>
>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in
>>> it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of
>>> the universe".
>>>
>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed
>>> by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly
>>> impossible to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of
>>> Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone
>>> that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like
>>> Jesus.
>>>
>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
>>> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
>>> Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>
>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
>>> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
>>> Jesus.
>>>
>
>
Carl
2009-07-20 15:49:51 UTC
Permalink
And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week, you
show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical treatment
as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or others. I pray
you get the medical help you need soon.

And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
"fascist" and "fascism."

Furthermore, your website is merely a fraud and as someone else accurately
described, your website is also "looney."

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

P.S. -- I see you never followed through on your pathetic threats to arrest
people who did not cater to your whims.

"dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TtU8m.6239$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
> Judaism and Christian identity.
>
> - dolf
> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>
> Carl wrote:
>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week,
>> you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical
>> treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or
>> others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>
>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>
>> May God bless,
>> Carl
>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>
>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>>
>>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
>>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>>
>>> - dolf
>>>
>>> #498
>>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>>> --- n. "Rest".
>>> --- burdens, tasks.
>>> --- to make war
>>>
>>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been
>>>>> >
>>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>>> mind in
>>>>> neutral, and
>>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>>
>>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>>>> silent.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>>
>>>>> the Centurian
>>>> ...
>>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>>>> JC is sent.
>>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>>> definition of
>>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>>> ...
>>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>>
>>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Matthew 8
>>>>
>>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>>> great
>>>> as this.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Luke 7
>>>>
>>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>>> do not
>>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under
>>>> my
>>>> roof;
>>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>>> Israel have
>>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>>
>>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>>> one who sent me.'
>>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>>
>>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>>> superior to their senders.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>>
>>>> SO ...........
>>>>
>>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>>
>>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>>
>>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>>
>>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>>
>>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>>
>>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>>
>>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>>
>>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>>
>>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>>
>>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>>> God.
>>>> IF
>>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>>> THEN
>>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>>
>>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>>
>>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Mat 10:40
>>>> Mar 9:37
>>>> Luk 9:48
>>>> Luk 10:16
>>>> Jhn 3:17
>>>> Jhn 4:34
>>>> Jhn 5:23
>>>> Jhn 5:24
>>>> Jhn 5:36
>>>> Jhn 5:37
>>>> Jhn 6:29
>>>> Jhn 6:38
>>>> Jhn 6:39
>>>> Jhn 6:40
>>>> Jhn 6:44
>>>> Jhn 6:57
>>>> Jhn 7:16
>>>> Jhn 7:28
>>>> Jhn 7:29
>>>> Jhn 7:33
>>>> Jhn 8:16
>>>> Jhn 8:18
>>>> Jhn 8:26
>>>> Jhn 8:29
>>>> Jhn 8:42
>>>> Jhn 9:4
>>>> Jhn 11:42
>>>> Jhn 12:45
>>>> Jhn 12:49
>>>> Jhn 13:20
>>>> Jhn 14:24
>>>> Jhn 15:21
>>>> Jhn 16:5
>>>> Jhn 17:3
>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>> Jhn 17:21
>>>> Jhn 17:23
>>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>>
>>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>>> sending him ....
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Luk 4:18
>>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
>>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Luk 9:2
>>>> Luk 10:1
>>>> Luk 22:8
>>>> Luk 22:35
>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>>
>>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>>> from the Father"
>>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
>>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>>> who sent me"
>>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>>> ####################################################
>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
>>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>>> ###################################
>>>>
>>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>>
>>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>>
>>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>>
>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>> from the Father"
>>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>>> with a message. That message is ...
>>>> ####################################################
>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>> from the Father"
>>>> ###################################
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>>
>>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>>
>>> #496
>>> --- reproach.
>>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
>>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>>> --- reign
>>> --- a kingdom, realm
>>> --- royally, in royal state
>>> --- his precepts.
>>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>>
>>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews,
>>>>> demanding we give
>>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can
>>>>> get to JC is
>>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>>>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain
>>>> there. It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is
>>>> forbidden for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively
>>>> encouraged by Christians.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>>
>>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>>
>>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>
>>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian
>>>> is likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most
>>>> of the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>>
>>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their
>>>> Prayer Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United
>>>> Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>>>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>>>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on
>>>> the Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe"
>>>> p.1. The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the
>>>> last "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the
>>>> Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of
>>>> "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>>>
>>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>>>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to
>>>> Jews and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to
>>>> mean the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>>
>>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped
>>>> for "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>>
>>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no
>>>> name for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look
>>>> it up in a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is
>>>> used in the Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is
>>>> used in the New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the
>>>> lord Jesus". (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital
>>>> letters. It can be either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>>
>>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and
>>>> made this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>>>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments,
>>>> I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>>>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>>>> made by human hands.
>>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by
>>>> human hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything --
>>>> including life and breath -- to everyone.
>>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>>>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the
>>>> times and limits of their habitation.
>>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>>>> not far from any of us,
>>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as
>>>> indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone
>>>> that has been carved and designed by a man.
>>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>>>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>>
>>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything
>>>> in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King
>>>> of the universe".
>>>>
>>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and
>>>> designed by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is
>>>> utterly impossible to make any type of image of this God. However,
>>>> Jesus of Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold,
>>>> silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made
>>>> to look like Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the
>>>> same as Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>
>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name
>>>> is NOT Jesus.
>>>>
>>
dolf
2009-07-20 21:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Re: Whilst NASA Grapples with space station toilets, I grapple with a
portable paradigm of mind...

Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
Judaism and Christian identity.


- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html



Carl wrote:
> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week, you
> show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical treatment
> as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or others. I pray
> you get the medical help you need soon.
>
> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
> "fascist" and "fascism."
>
> Furthermore, your website is merely a fraud and as someone else accurately
> described, your website is also "looney."
>
> May God bless,
> Carl
> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>
> P.S. -- I see you never followed through on your pathetic threats to arrest
> people who did not cater to your whims.
>
> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:TtU8m.6239$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
>> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
>> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
>> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
>> Judaism and Christian identity.
>>
>> - dolf
>> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>>
>> Carl wrote:
>>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week,
>>> you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical
>>> treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or
>>> others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>>
>>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>>
>>> May God bless,
>>> Carl
>>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>>
>>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>>>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>>>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>>>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
>>>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>>>
>>>> - dolf
>>>>
>>>> #498
>>>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>>>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>>>> --- n. "Rest".
>>>> --- burdens, tasks.
>>>> --- to make war
>>>>
>>>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>>>> mind in
>>>>>> neutral, and
>>>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>>>>> silent.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>>>
>>>>>> the Centurian
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>>>>> JC is sent.
>>>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>>>> definition of
>>>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Matthew 8
>>>>>
>>>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>>>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>>>> great
>>>>> as this.
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Luke 7
>>>>>
>>>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>>>> do not
>>>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under
>>>>> my
>>>>> roof;
>>>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>>>> Israel have
>>>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>>>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>>>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>>>
>>>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>>>> one who sent me.'
>>>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>>>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>>>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>>>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>>>
>>>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>>>> superior to their senders.
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> SO ...........
>>>>>
>>>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>>>
>>>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>>>
>>>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>>>
>>>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>>>
>>>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>>>
>>>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>>>
>>>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>>>
>>>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>>>
>>>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>>>
>>>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>>>> God.
>>>>> IF
>>>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>>>> THEN
>>>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>>>
>>>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>>>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Mat 10:40
>>>>> Mar 9:37
>>>>> Luk 9:48
>>>>> Luk 10:16
>>>>> Jhn 3:17
>>>>> Jhn 4:34
>>>>> Jhn 5:23
>>>>> Jhn 5:24
>>>>> Jhn 5:36
>>>>> Jhn 5:37
>>>>> Jhn 6:29
>>>>> Jhn 6:38
>>>>> Jhn 6:39
>>>>> Jhn 6:40
>>>>> Jhn 6:44
>>>>> Jhn 6:57
>>>>> Jhn 7:16
>>>>> Jhn 7:28
>>>>> Jhn 7:29
>>>>> Jhn 7:33
>>>>> Jhn 8:16
>>>>> Jhn 8:18
>>>>> Jhn 8:26
>>>>> Jhn 8:29
>>>>> Jhn 8:42
>>>>> Jhn 9:4
>>>>> Jhn 11:42
>>>>> Jhn 12:45
>>>>> Jhn 12:49
>>>>> Jhn 13:20
>>>>> Jhn 14:24
>>>>> Jhn 15:21
>>>>> Jhn 16:5
>>>>> Jhn 17:3
>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>> Jhn 17:21
>>>>> Jhn 17:23
>>>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>>>> sending him ....
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Luk 4:18
>>>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>>>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>>>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
>>>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>>>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>>>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Luk 9:2
>>>>> Luk 10:1
>>>>> Luk 22:8
>>>>> Luk 22:35
>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>>>> from the Father"
>>>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>>>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
>>>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>>>> who sent me"
>>>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
>>>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>
>>>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>>>
>>>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>>>
>>>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>>>
>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>> from the Father"
>>>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>>>> with a message. That message is ...
>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>>>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>> from the Father"
>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>>>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>>>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>>>
>>>> #496
>>>> --- reproach.
>>>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>>>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
>>>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>>>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>>>> --- reign
>>>> --- a kingdom, realm
>>>> --- royally, in royal state
>>>> --- his precepts.
>>>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>>>
>>>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews,
>>>>>> demanding we give
>>>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can
>>>>>> get to JC is
>>>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>>>>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain
>>>>> there. It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is
>>>>> forbidden for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively
>>>>> encouraged by Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>>>
>>>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian
>>>>> is likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most
>>>>> of the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>>>
>>>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their
>>>>> Prayer Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United
>>>>> Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>>>>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>>>>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on
>>>>> the Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe"
>>>>> p.1. The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the
>>>>> last "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the
>>>>> Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of
>>>>> "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>>>>
>>>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>>>>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to
>>>>> Jews and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to
>>>>> mean the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>>>
>>>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped
>>>>> for "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>>>
>>>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no
>>>>> name for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look
>>>>> it up in a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is
>>>>> used in the Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is
>>>>> used in the New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the
>>>>> lord Jesus". (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital
>>>>> letters. It can be either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>>>
>>>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and
>>>>> made this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>>>>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments,
>>>>> I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>>>>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>>>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>>>>> made by human hands.
>>>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by
>>>>> human hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything --
>>>>> including life and breath -- to everyone.
>>>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>>>>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the
>>>>> times and limits of their habitation.
>>>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>>>>> not far from any of us,
>>>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as
>>>>> indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone
>>>>> that has been carved and designed by a man.
>>>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>>>>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything
>>>>> in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King
>>>>> of the universe".
>>>>>
>>>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and
>>>>> designed by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is
>>>>> utterly impossible to make any type of image of this God. However,
>>>>> Jesus of Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold,
>>>>> silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made
>>>>> to look like Jesus.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the
>>>>> same as Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name
>>>>> is NOT Jesus.
>>>>>
>
Carl
2009-07-21 04:11:21 UTC
Permalink
dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever personality is dominant this week, this post of
yours is incoherent. It illustrates the mental illness that you admitted to.
Please seek psychiatric counseling before you become a danger to yourself or
others.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

P.S. -- I see you haven't had any success arresting anyone at hotmail nor
anyplace else as you threatened. Empty threats are typical from you. You
need psychiatric counseling for the mental illnesses of which you admitted.
I doubt you were ever a sworn officer. You are probably lying about that as
well.

"dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g459m.6360$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Re: Whilst NASA Grapples with space station toilets, I grapple with a
> portable paradigm of mind...
>
> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
> Judaism and Christian identity.
>
>
> - dolf
> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>
>
>
> Carl wrote:
>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week,
>> you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical
>> treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or
>> others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>
>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>
>> Furthermore, your website is merely a fraud and as someone else
>> accurately described, your website is also "looney."
>>
>> May God bless,
>> Carl
>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>
>> P.S. -- I see you never followed through on your pathetic threats to
>> arrest people who did not cater to your whims.
>>
>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:TtU8m.6239$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
>>> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
>>> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
>>> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
>>> Judaism and Christian identity.
>>>
>>> - dolf
>>> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>>>
>>> Carl wrote:
>>>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this
>>>> week, you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need
>>>> medical treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to
>>>> yourself or others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>>>
>>>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>>>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>>>
>>>> May God bless,
>>>> Carl
>>>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>>>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>>>
>>>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>>>>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>>>>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>>>>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my
>>>>> affections
>>>>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>>>>
>>>>> - dolf
>>>>>
>>>>> #498
>>>>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>>>>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>>>>> --- n. "Rest".
>>>>> --- burdens, tasks.
>>>>> --- to make war
>>>>>
>>>>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only
>>>>>>> been >
>>>>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only
>>>>>>> christians -
>>>>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>>>>> mind in
>>>>>>> neutral, and
>>>>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>>>>>> silent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the Centurian
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who
>>>>>>> sends.
>>>>>>> JC is sent.
>>>>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>>>>> definition of
>>>>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> Matthew 8
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>>>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>>>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>>>>> great
>>>>>> as this.
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> Luke 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>>>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>>>>> do not
>>>>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> roof;
>>>>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>>>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>>>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>>>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>>>>> Israel have
>>>>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>>>>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>>>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>>>>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>>>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>>>>> one who sent me.'
>>>>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>>>>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>>>>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>>>>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>>>>> superior to their senders.
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SO ...........
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>>>>> God.
>>>>>> IF
>>>>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>>>>> THEN
>>>>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>>>>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>>>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> Mat 10:40
>>>>>> Mar 9:37
>>>>>> Luk 9:48
>>>>>> Luk 10:16
>>>>>> Jhn 3:17
>>>>>> Jhn 4:34
>>>>>> Jhn 5:23
>>>>>> Jhn 5:24
>>>>>> Jhn 5:36
>>>>>> Jhn 5:37
>>>>>> Jhn 6:29
>>>>>> Jhn 6:38
>>>>>> Jhn 6:39
>>>>>> Jhn 6:40
>>>>>> Jhn 6:44
>>>>>> Jhn 6:57
>>>>>> Jhn 7:16
>>>>>> Jhn 7:28
>>>>>> Jhn 7:29
>>>>>> Jhn 7:33
>>>>>> Jhn 8:16
>>>>>> Jhn 8:18
>>>>>> Jhn 8:26
>>>>>> Jhn 8:29
>>>>>> Jhn 8:42
>>>>>> Jhn 9:4
>>>>>> Jhn 11:42
>>>>>> Jhn 12:45
>>>>>> Jhn 12:49
>>>>>> Jhn 13:20
>>>>>> Jhn 14:24
>>>>>> Jhn 15:21
>>>>>> Jhn 16:5
>>>>>> Jhn 17:3
>>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>>> Jhn 17:21
>>>>>> Jhn 17:23
>>>>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>>>>> sending him ....
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> Luk 4:18
>>>>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>>>>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>>>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>>>>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim
>>>>> liberty
>>>>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>>>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>>>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>>>>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>>>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>>>>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> Luk 9:2
>>>>>> Luk 10:1
>>>>>> Luk 22:8
>>>>>> Luk 22:35
>>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>>>>> from the Father"
>>>>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>>>>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to
>>>>> do
>>>>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>>>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>>>>> who sent me"
>>>>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being
>>>>> brought
>>>>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>>> from the Father"
>>>>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>>>>> with a message. That message is ...
>>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>>>>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>>> from the Father"
>>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>>>>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>>>>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>>>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>>>>
>>>>> #496
>>>>> --- reproach.
>>>>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>>>>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to
>>>>> the
>>>>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>>>>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>>>>> --- reign
>>>>> --- a kingdom, realm
>>>>> --- royally, in royal state
>>>>> --- his precepts.
>>>>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>>>>
>>>>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the
>>>>>>> Jews.
>>>>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews,
>>>>>>> demanding we give
>>>>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can
>>>>>>> get to JC is
>>>>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>>>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they
>>>>>> have destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>>>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>>>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon
>>>>>> Christian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>>>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain
>>>>>> there. It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is
>>>>>> forbidden for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively
>>>>>> encouraged by Christians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian
>>>>>> is likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said.
>>>>>> Most of the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their
>>>>>> Prayer Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the
>>>>>> United Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations"
>>>>>> (Eyre & Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given
>>>>>> to me as a new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On
>>>>>> putting on the Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of
>>>>>> the universe" p.1. The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter
>>>>>> right up to the last "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where
>>>>>> again is found the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord
>>>>>> is One" alongside of "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the
>>>>>> universe".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father"
>>>>>> and the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced
>>>>>> to Jews and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that
>>>>>> "our" to mean the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped
>>>>>> for "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no
>>>>>> name for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look
>>>>>> it up in a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name
>>>>>> is used in the Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to
>>>>>> Jesus is used in the New Testament and more often than not it is
>>>>>> "name of the lord Jesus". (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has
>>>>>> no capital letters. It can be either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and
>>>>>> made this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how
>>>>>> extremely scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>>>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred
>>>>>> monuments, I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An
>>>>>> Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I
>>>>>> proclaim to you.
>>>>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>>>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in
>>>>>> shrines made by human hands.
>>>>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by
>>>>>> human hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything --
>>>>>> including life and breath -- to everyone.
>>>>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole
>>>>>> human race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed
>>>>>> the times and limits of their habitation.
>>>>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>>>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he
>>>>>> is not far from any of us,
>>>>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as
>>>>>> indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>>>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>>>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone
>>>>>> that has been carved and designed by a man.
>>>>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>>>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is
>>>>>> the one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and
>>>>>> everything in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes
>>>>>> "Lord God, King of the universe".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>>>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and
>>>>>> designed by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it
>>>>>> is utterly impossible to make any type of image of this God.
>>>>>> However, Jesus of Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in
>>>>>> gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN
>>>>>> be made to look like Jesus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the
>>>>>> same as Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that
>>>>>> name is NOT Jesus.
>>>>>>
>>
dolf
2009-07-21 12:00:42 UTC
Permalink
"Know, my beloved, that the devil cares only for compassing the ruin of
everyone of us, but that he does not use one and the same method of
warfare against us all. To help you to see and understand this more
clearly, I shall describe to you five inner states of people and the
corresponding wiles, and circuitous approaches and enticements of the enemy.

These states are the following: some people remain in the slavery of
sin, with no thought of liberation; others, although thinking of this
liberation and desiring it, do nothing to achieve it; there are also
people who, having been freed from the shackles of sin and having
acquired virtues, again fall into sin with still greater moral corruption.

In their self-delusion some of these latter think that, in spite of it
all, they are still advancing towards perfection; others heedlessly
abandon the path of virtue; yet others turn the very virtue they possess
into a cause and occasion of harm for themselves. The enemy influences
each of them in accordance with their state and disposition." [Lorenzo
Scupoli, 'Unseen Warfare as edited by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and
revised by Theophan the Recluse, p 160]

I thought since we've given a brief introduction into Leonard Talmy's
excellent two volumes of 'Toward a Cognitive Semantics'

- Concept Structuring Systems
- Typology and Process in Concept Structuring

That in this the next Chapter titled 'JA HAAG', we'll develop the
BOEK(id) function further in the implementation of a GRAPPLE BIBLE
perspective of the entire vCube system from #72 ... #75 ... #584 which
appears to be an engine.

As I said previously, "before implementation phase of the Spectral
Primer I've placed into the public sphere the protocols which will be
manifested by that function as my working towards associating the
dialectic basis of human speech {ie. thesis, antithesis, synthesis and
progression as metathesis} and the extrusion of ideas to a 3-dimensional
cellular automata model as balanced ternary distributed system which
circumscribes the unity of our semantical engine for associating and
hosting religious belief and their value systems."

Today I spoke to some NSW plain clothes police about their unnecessary
and high-handed pursuit of a destitute street kid whom I complained they
were unnecessarily victimizing.

They recently deprived him of his money and tobacco on account of his
also having an indeterminate quantity and quality of illicit organic
substance on his person.

I had just bought him a burger and gave him $40 to help him on his way.
Because he had car window washing implement on his person the police
today seized the money as proceeds (ie. improbable as you only get small
change for car window washing) for those casual work actions over which
he has previously received a $50 ticket and caution by the police.

He regards me as kin (I am a father to him) and immediately came back to
my house and told me that he was later stripped searched and robbed by
the NSW Police Kings Cross Station. We went to the corner store and
sought change so that I could again give him $40. Once upon a time, to
have no money on your person was a summary offense for which there was a
power of arrest as the crime of vagrancy.

The police said, if I wanted to lodge a complaint, I could go to Kings
Cross Police station. Since the police there are intellectually stupid,
have no religious values to sustain either their oath of office and
marriages, there is a lack of comprehension as to the metaphysical
definition of force made by my paradigm as technology under the
Commonwealth and invalidating the Letters Patent) are corrupt like the
Saint Kilda Police in Victoria--now why would I do that?

These police need to be reminded that if they continue to show such
disrespect to me, I will not tolerate their fascism as indicative of the
character and abject haughty disdain for my Intellectual Property--You
will not speak to me unless you have read my www-page and show respect
accordingly in public as you have stripped searched and subject my
guardianship to a public impunity. If there is no action to charge them
for theft and terminate their careers I will pursue them in a court of law.

Besides the culture of bullying by the Victoria of social groups was the
cause for the Russell Street bombing and my experience of a disease
state and a subsequent culture of persecution by the Victoria Police.

When this human rights issue is resolved, it will nullify the career
history and status of four Chief Commissioners.

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/jahaag.html

Carl wrote:
> dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever personality is dominant this week, this post of
> yours is incoherent. It illustrates the mental illness that you admitted to.
> Please seek psychiatric counseling before you become a danger to yourself or
> others.
>
> May God bless,
> Carl
> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>
> P.S. -- I see you haven't had any success arresting anyone at hotmail nor
> anyplace else as you threatened. Empty threats are typical from you. You
> need psychiatric counseling for the mental illnesses of which you admitted.
> I doubt you were ever a sworn officer. You are probably lying about that as
> well.
>
> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:g459m.6360$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Re: Whilst NASA Grapples with space station toilets, I grapple with a
>> portable paradigm of mind...
>>
>> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
>> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
>> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
>> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
>> Judaism and Christian identity.
>>
>>
>> - dolf
>> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Carl wrote:
>>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week,
>>> you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical
>>> treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or
>>> others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>>
>>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>>
>>> Furthermore, your website is merely a fraud and as someone else
>>> accurately described, your website is also "looney."
>>>
>>> May God bless,
>>> Carl
>>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>>
>>> P.S. -- I see you never followed through on your pathetic threats to
>>> arrest people who did not cater to your whims.
>>>
>>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:TtU8m.6239$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
>>>> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
>>>> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
>>>> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
>>>> Judaism and Christian identity.
>>>>
>>>> - dolf
>>>> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>>>>
>>>> Carl wrote:
>>>>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this
>>>>> week, you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need
>>>>> medical treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to
>>>>> yourself or others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>>>>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>>>>
>>>>> May God bless,
>>>>> Carl
>>>>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>>>>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>>>>
>>>>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>>>>>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>>>>>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>>>>>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my
>>>>>> affections
>>>>>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - dolf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #498
>>>>>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>>>>>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>>>>>> --- n. "Rest".
>>>>>> --- burdens, tasks.
>>>>>> --- to make war
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only
>>>>>>>> been >
>>>>>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>>>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only
>>>>>>>> christians -
>>>>>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>>>>>> mind in
>>>>>>>> neutral, and
>>>>>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>>>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>>>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>>>>>>> silent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the Centurian
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who
>>>>>>>> sends.
>>>>>>>> JC is sent.
>>>>>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>>>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>>>>>> definition of
>>>>>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>>>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>>>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> Matthew 8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>>>>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>>>>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>>>>>> great
>>>>>>> as this.
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> Luke 7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>>>>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>>>>>> do not
>>>>>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> roof;
>>>>>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>>>>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>>>>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>>>>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>>>>>> Israel have
>>>>>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>>>>>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>>>>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>>>>>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>>>>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>>>>>> one who sent me.'
>>>>>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>>>>>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>>>>>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>>>>>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>>>>>> superior to their senders.
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SO ...........
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>>>>>> God.
>>>>>>> IF
>>>>>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>>>>>> THEN
>>>>>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>>>>>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>>>>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> Mat 10:40
>>>>>>> Mar 9:37
>>>>>>> Luk 9:48
>>>>>>> Luk 10:16
>>>>>>> Jhn 3:17
>>>>>>> Jhn 4:34
>>>>>>> Jhn 5:23
>>>>>>> Jhn 5:24
>>>>>>> Jhn 5:36
>>>>>>> Jhn 5:37
>>>>>>> Jhn 6:29
>>>>>>> Jhn 6:38
>>>>>>> Jhn 6:39
>>>>>>> Jhn 6:40
>>>>>>> Jhn 6:44
>>>>>>> Jhn 6:57
>>>>>>> Jhn 7:16
>>>>>>> Jhn 7:28
>>>>>>> Jhn 7:29
>>>>>>> Jhn 7:33
>>>>>>> Jhn 8:16
>>>>>>> Jhn 8:18
>>>>>>> Jhn 8:26
>>>>>>> Jhn 8:29
>>>>>>> Jhn 8:42
>>>>>>> Jhn 9:4
>>>>>>> Jhn 11:42
>>>>>>> Jhn 12:45
>>>>>>> Jhn 12:49
>>>>>>> Jhn 13:20
>>>>>>> Jhn 14:24
>>>>>>> Jhn 15:21
>>>>>>> Jhn 16:5
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:3
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:21
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:23
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>>>>>> sending him ....
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> Luk 4:18
>>>>>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>>>>>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>>>>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>>>>>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim
>>>>>> liberty
>>>>>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>>>>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>>>>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>>>>>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>>>>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>>>>>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> Luk 9:2
>>>>>>> Luk 10:1
>>>>>>> Luk 22:8
>>>>>>> Luk 22:35
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>>>>>> from the Father"
>>>>>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>>>>>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>>>>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>>>>>> who sent me"
>>>>>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>>>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being
>>>>>> brought
>>>>>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>>>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>>>> from the Father"
>>>>>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>>>>>> with a message. That message is ...
>>>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>>>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>>>>>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>>>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>>>> from the Father"
>>>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>>>>>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>>>>>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>>>>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> #496
>>>>>> --- reproach.
>>>>>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>>>>>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>>>>>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>>>>>> --- reign
>>>>>> --- a kingdom, realm
>>>>>> --- royally, in royal state
>>>>>> --- his precepts.
>>>>>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>>>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the
>>>>>>>> Jews.
>>>>>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews,
>>>>>>>> demanding we give
>>>>>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can
>>>>>>>> get to JC is
>>>>>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>>>>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they
>>>>>>> have destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>>>>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>>>>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon
>>>>>>> Christian.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>>>>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain
>>>>>>> there. It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is
>>>>>>> forbidden for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively
>>>>>>> encouraged by Christians.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>>>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian
>>>>>>> is likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said.
>>>>>>> Most of the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their
>>>>>>> Prayer Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the
>>>>>>> United Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations"
>>>>>>> (Eyre & Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given
>>>>>>> to me as a new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On
>>>>>>> putting on the Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of
>>>>>>> the universe" p.1. The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter
>>>>>>> right up to the last "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where
>>>>>>> again is found the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord
>>>>>>> is One" alongside of "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the
>>>>>>> universe".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father"
>>>>>>> and the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced
>>>>>>> to Jews and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that
>>>>>>> "our" to mean the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped
>>>>>>> for "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no
>>>>>>> name for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look
>>>>>>> it up in a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name
>>>>>>> is used in the Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to
>>>>>>> Jesus is used in the New Testament and more often than not it is
>>>>>>> "name of the lord Jesus". (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has
>>>>>>> no capital letters. It can be either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and
>>>>>>> made this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how
>>>>>>> extremely scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>>>>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred
>>>>>>> monuments, I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An
>>>>>>> Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I
>>>>>>> proclaim to you.
>>>>>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>>>>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in
>>>>>>> shrines made by human hands.
>>>>>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by
>>>>>>> human hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything --
>>>>>>> including life and breath -- to everyone.
>>>>>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole
>>>>>>> human race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed
>>>>>>> the times and limits of their habitation.
>>>>>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>>>>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he
>>>>>>> is not far from any of us,
>>>>>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as
>>>>>>> indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>>>>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>>>>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone
>>>>>>> that has been carved and designed by a man.
>>>>>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>>>>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is
>>>>>>> the one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and
>>>>>>> everything in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes
>>>>>>> "Lord God, King of the universe".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>>>>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and
>>>>>>> designed by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it
>>>>>>> is utterly impossible to make any type of image of this God.
>>>>>>> However, Jesus of Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in
>>>>>>> gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN
>>>>>>> be made to look like Jesus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the
>>>>>>> same as Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that
>>>>>>> name is NOT Jesus.
>>>>>>>
>
>
dolf
2009-07-20 21:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Re: Whilst NASA Grapples with space station toilets, I grapple with a
portable paradigm of mind...

Craig Chilton can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
Judaism and Christian identity.

I have constructed a paradigm of mind in relation to the events of 11
September 2001 and in doing so have conveyed philosophical and
theological perspectives to eliminate the resligious basis to such
terrorism.

I expect I might be able to claim to bounty of Osama Bin Laden's head
whether he is alive of dead.

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html

Carl <***@nettally.com> wrote:
> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week, you
> show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical treatment
> as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or others. I pray
> you get the medical help you need soon.
>
> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
> "fascist" and "fascism."
>
> Furthermore, your website is merely a fraud and as someone else accurately
> described, your website is also "looney."
>
> May God bless,
> Carl
> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>
> P.S. -- I see you never followed through on your pathetic threats to arrest
> people who did not cater to your whims.
>
> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:TtU8m.6239$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Carl McCluskey can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
>> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
>> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
>> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
>> Judaism and Christian identity.
>>
>> - dolf
>> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>>
>> Carl wrote:
>>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week,
>>> you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical
>>> treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or
>>> others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>>
>>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>>
>>> May God bless,
>>> Carl
>>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>>
>>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>>>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>>>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>>>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
>>>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>>>
>>>> - dolf
>>>>
>>>> #498
>>>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>>>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>>>> --- n. "Rest".
>>>> --- burdens, tasks.
>>>> --- to make war
>>>>
>>>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>>>> mind in
>>>>>> neutral, and
>>>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>>>>> silent.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>>>
>>>>>> the Centurian
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>>>>> JC is sent.
>>>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>>>> definition of
>>>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Matthew 8
>>>>>
>>>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>>>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>>>> great
>>>>> as this.
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Luke 7
>>>>>
>>>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>>>> do not
>>>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under
>>>>> my
>>>>> roof;
>>>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>>>> Israel have
>>>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>>>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>>>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>>>
>>>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>>>> one who sent me.'
>>>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>>>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>>>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>>>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>>>
>>>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>>>> superior to their senders.
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> SO ...........
>>>>>
>>>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>>>
>>>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>>>
>>>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>>>
>>>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>>>
>>>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>>>
>>>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>>>
>>>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>>>
>>>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>>>
>>>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>>>
>>>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>>>> God.
>>>>> IF
>>>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>>>> THEN
>>>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>>>
>>>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>>>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Mat 10:40
>>>>> Mar 9:37
>>>>> Luk 9:48
>>>>> Luk 10:16
>>>>> Jhn 3:17
>>>>> Jhn 4:34
>>>>> Jhn 5:23
>>>>> Jhn 5:24
>>>>> Jhn 5:36
>>>>> Jhn 5:37
>>>>> Jhn 6:29
>>>>> Jhn 6:38
>>>>> Jhn 6:39
>>>>> Jhn 6:40
>>>>> Jhn 6:44
>>>>> Jhn 6:57
>>>>> Jhn 7:16
>>>>> Jhn 7:28
>>>>> Jhn 7:29
>>>>> Jhn 7:33
>>>>> Jhn 8:16
>>>>> Jhn 8:18
>>>>> Jhn 8:26
>>>>> Jhn 8:29
>>>>> Jhn 8:42
>>>>> Jhn 9:4
>>>>> Jhn 11:42
>>>>> Jhn 12:45
>>>>> Jhn 12:49
>>>>> Jhn 13:20
>>>>> Jhn 14:24
>>>>> Jhn 15:21
>>>>> Jhn 16:5
>>>>> Jhn 17:3
>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>> Jhn 17:21
>>>>> Jhn 17:23
>>>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>>>> sending him ....
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Luk 4:18
>>>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>>>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>>>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
>>>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>>>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>>>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> Luk 9:2
>>>>> Luk 10:1
>>>>> Luk 22:8
>>>>> Luk 22:35
>>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>>>> from the Father"
>>>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>>>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
>>>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>>>> who sent me"
>>>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
>>>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>
>>>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>>>
>>>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>>>
>>>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>>>
>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>> from the Father"
>>>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>>>> with a message. That message is ...
>>>>> ####################################################
>>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>>>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>>> from the Father"
>>>>> ###################################
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>>>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>>>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>>>
>>>> #496
>>>> --- reproach.
>>>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>>>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
>>>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>>>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>>>> --- reign
>>>> --- a kingdom, realm
>>>> --- royally, in royal state
>>>> --- his precepts.
>>>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>>>
>>>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews,
>>>>>> demanding we give
>>>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can
>>>>>> get to JC is
>>>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>>>>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain
>>>>> there. It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is
>>>>> forbidden for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively
>>>>> encouraged by Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>>>
>>>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian
>>>>> is likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most
>>>>> of the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>>>
>>>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their
>>>>> Prayer Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United
>>>>> Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>>>>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>>>>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on
>>>>> the Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe"
>>>>> p.1. The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the
>>>>> last "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the
>>>>> Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of
>>>>> "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>>>>
>>>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>>>>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to
>>>>> Jews and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to
>>>>> mean the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>>>
>>>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped
>>>>> for "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>>>
>>>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no
>>>>> name for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look
>>>>> it up in a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is
>>>>> used in the Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is
>>>>> used in the New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the
>>>>> lord Jesus". (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital
>>>>> letters. It can be either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>>>
>>>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and
>>>>> made this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>>>>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments,
>>>>> I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>>>>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>>>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>>>>> made by human hands.
>>>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by
>>>>> human hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything --
>>>>> including life and breath -- to everyone.
>>>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>>>>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the
>>>>> times and limits of their habitation.
>>>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>>>>> not far from any of us,
>>>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as
>>>>> indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone
>>>>> that has been carved and designed by a man.
>>>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>>>>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything
>>>>> in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King
>>>>> of the universe".
>>>>>
>>>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and
>>>>> designed by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is
>>>>> utterly impossible to make any type of image of this God. However,
>>>>> Jesus of Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold,
>>>>> silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made
>>>>> to look like Jesus.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the
>>>>> same as Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name
>>>>> is NOT Jesus.
>>>>>
>
dolf
2009-07-20 21:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Re: Whilst NASA Grapples with space station toilets, I grapple with a
portable paradigm of mind...

Craig Chilton can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
Judaism and Christian identity.

I have constructed a paradigm of mind in relation to the events of 11
September 2001 and in doing so have conveyed philosophical and
theological perspectives to eliminate the religious basis to such terrorism.

I expect I might be able to claim to bounty of Osama Bin Laden's head
whether he is alive or dead.

- dolf
- http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html

Carl wrote:
> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week, you
> show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical treatment
> as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or others. I pray
> you get the medical help you need soon.
>
> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
> "fascist" and "fascism."
>
> May God bless,
> Carl
> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>
> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>
>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>
>> - dolf
>>
>> #498
>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>> --- n. "Rest".
>> --- burdens, tasks.
>> --- to make war
>>
>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been >
>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>> mind in
>>>> neutral, and
>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>
>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>
>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely silent.
>>>
>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>
>>>> the Centurian
>>> ...
>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>>> JC is sent.
>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>
>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>> definition of
>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>> ...
>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>
>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>
>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Matthew 8
>>>
>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>> great
>>> as this.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Luke 7
>>>
>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>> do not
>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under my
>>> roof;
>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>> Israel have
>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>
>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>> one who sent me.'
>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>
>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>> superior to their senders.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>
>>> SO ...........
>>>
>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>
>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>
>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>
>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>
>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>
>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>
>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>
>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>
>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>
>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>> God.
>>> IF
>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>> THEN
>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>
>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>
>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Mat 10:40
>>> Mar 9:37
>>> Luk 9:48
>>> Luk 10:16
>>> Jhn 3:17
>>> Jhn 4:34
>>> Jhn 5:23
>>> Jhn 5:24
>>> Jhn 5:36
>>> Jhn 5:37
>>> Jhn 6:29
>>> Jhn 6:38
>>> Jhn 6:39
>>> Jhn 6:40
>>> Jhn 6:44
>>> Jhn 6:57
>>> Jhn 7:16
>>> Jhn 7:28
>>> Jhn 7:29
>>> Jhn 7:33
>>> Jhn 8:16
>>> Jhn 8:18
>>> Jhn 8:26
>>> Jhn 8:29
>>> Jhn 8:42
>>> Jhn 9:4
>>> Jhn 11:42
>>> Jhn 12:45
>>> Jhn 12:49
>>> Jhn 13:20
>>> Jhn 14:24
>>> Jhn 15:21
>>> Jhn 16:5
>>> Jhn 17:3
>>> Jhn 17:18
>>> Jhn 17:21
>>> Jhn 17:23
>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>
>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>> sending him ....
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Luk 4:18
>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Luk 9:2
>>> Luk 10:1
>>> Luk 22:8
>>> Luk 22:35
>>> Jhn 17:18
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>
>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>> from the Father"
>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>> who sent me"
>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>> ####################################################
>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>> ###################################
>>>
>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>
>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>
>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>
>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>> from the Father"
>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>> with a message. That message is ...
>>> ####################################################
>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>> from the Father"
>>> ###################################
>>>
>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>
>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>
>> #496
>> --- reproach.
>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>> --- reign
>> --- a kingdom, realm
>> --- royally, in royal state
>> --- his precepts.
>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>
>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews, demanding
>>>> we give
>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can get
>>>> to JC is
>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>>
>>>
>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain there.
>>> It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is forbidden
>>> for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively encouraged by
>>> Christians.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>
>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>
>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>
>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian is
>>> likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most of
>>> the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>
>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their Prayer
>>> Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew
>>> Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on the
>>> Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe" p.1.
>>> The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the last
>>> "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the Shema
>>> "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of "Blessed
>>> art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>>
>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to Jews
>>> and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to mean
>>> the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>
>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped for
>>> "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>
>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no name
>>> for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look it up in
>>> a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is used in the
>>> Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is used in the
>>> New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the lord Jesus".
>>> (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital letters. It can be
>>> either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>
>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and made
>>> this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I
>>> noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>>> made by human hands.
>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by human
>>> hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life
>>> and breath -- to everyone.
>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times
>>> and limits of their habitation.
>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>>> not far from any of us,
>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed
>>> some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that
>>> has been carved and designed by a man.
>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>
>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything in
>>> it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King of
>>> the universe".
>>>
>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed
>>> by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is utterly
>>> impossible to make any type of image of this God. However, Jesus of
>>> Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold, silver or stone
>>> that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made to look like
>>> Jesus.
>>>
>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
>>> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the same as
>>> Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>
>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven and
>>> earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name is NOT
>>> Jesus.
>>>
>
>
Carl
2009-07-21 04:11:57 UTC
Permalink
dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever personality is dominant this week, this post of
yours is incoherent. It illustrates the mental illness that you admitted to.
Please seek psychiatric counseling before you become a danger to yourself or
others.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

P.S. -- I see you haven't had any success arresting anyone at hotmail nor
anyplace else as you threatened. Empty threats are typical from you. You
need psychiatric counseling for the mental illnesses of which you admitted.
I doubt you were ever a sworn officer. You are probably lying about that as
well.

"dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Cv59m.6372$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Re: Whilst NASA Grapples with space station toilets, I grapple with a
> portable paradigm of mind...
>
> Craig Chilton can at any time in this claimed orthodoxy convey factual
> refutation rather than slander as evil speaking as response to the
> intellectual, philosophical and theological discourse which available at
> my WWW-page--this discourse is compatible with my friends in Hassidic
> Judaism and Christian identity.
>
> I have constructed a paradigm of mind in relation to the events of 11
> September 2001 and in doing so have conveyed philosophical and theological
> perspectives to eliminate the religious basis to such terrorism.
>
> I expect I might be able to claim to bounty of Osama Bin Laden's head
> whether he is alive or dead.
>
> - dolf
> - http://www.grapple.id.au/Chronicles/kangaroo.html
>
> Carl wrote:
>> And as usual, dolf/aaron/quolon/whatever identity is dominant this week,
>> you show that you mental illness is growing worse and you need medical
>> treatment as soon as possible before you become a threat to yourself or
>> others. I pray you get the medical help you need soon.
>>
>> And you still are clueless as to the proper and accurate meaning of
>> "fascist" and "fascism."
>>
>> May God bless,
>> Carl
>> my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>> my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
>>
>> "dolf" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:O%D8m.6107$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> Mark Tindall whilst your behaviour continues to show collusion with
>>> others of impious Australian and fascist nationalistic identity and in
>>> parallel with media or sports events whilst there is a war on you will
>>> be regarded by me in my war effort as disloyal to STATE.
>>>
>>> I cannot have anything further to do with you. And given my affections
>>> for you, this request is not negotiable.
>>>
>>> - dolf
>>>
>>> #498
>>> --- n. "He (God) opens".
>>> --- to venture a trespass against Yahovah.
>>> --- n. "Rest".
>>> --- burdens, tasks.
>>> --- to make war
>>>
>>> I <***@home0000498> wrote:
>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now, to communicate these sort of things to people who have only been
>>>>> >
>>>>> shown one set of ideas and not others ... like these.
>>>>> That is an interesting problem. Lots of people, not only christians -
>>>>> shove > a finger in one ear, a finger in the other ear, put their
>>> mind in
>>>>> neutral, and
>>>>> their mouth on high speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I sort of expect this thread to die now.
>>>>> People are probably a tad shell shocked.
>>>>
>>>> Those who are the most vocal about Jesus being God are strangely
>>>> silent.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think they speak the same language.
>>>>
>>>>> the Centurian
>>>> ...
>>>>> The sender has authority. The sent does the will of the one who sends.
>>>>> JC is sent.
>>>>> JC is not omniscient.
>>>>> JC is not in charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the very definition that Christianity demands to be used as the
>>>>> definition of
>>>>> god, then JC is not god.
>>>> ...
>>>>> - JC is sent, JC is not omnipotent -
>>>>> therefore JC is not god.
>>>>
>>>> This has been a VERY fruitful exercise! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Here is something interesting ..............
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Matthew 8
>>>>
>>>> 8 The centurion replied, 'Sir, I am not worthy to have you under my
>>>> roof; just give the word and my servant will be cured.
>>>> 9 For I am under authority myself and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>> 10 When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following
>>>> him, 'In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as
>>> great
>>>> as this.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Luke 7
>>>>
>>>> 6 So Jesus went with them, and was not very far from the house when
>>>> the centurion sent word to him by some friends to say to him, 'Sir,
>>> do not
>>>> put yourself to any trouble because I am not worthy to have you under
>>>> my
>>>> roof;
>>>> 7 and that is why I did not presume to come to you myself; let my boy
>>>> be cured by your giving the word.
>>>> 8 For I am under authority myself, and have soldiers under me; and I
>>>> say to one man, "Go," and he goes; to another, "Come here," and he
>>> comes; to my servant, "Do this," and he does it.'
>>>> 9 When Jesus heard these words he was astonished at him and, turning
>>>> round, said to the crowd following him, 'I tell you, not even in
>>> Israel have
>>>> I found faith as great as this.'
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> The meeting with the Roman Centurian is not recorded in Mark's
>>> gospel (the earliest) nor John's gospel (the latest).
>>>> Previously I mentioned Acts 17: 23 "the unknown God you revere is
>>> the one I proclaim to you."
>>>> Jhn 7:28 "he that sent me is true ... whom you do not know"
>>>>
>>>> In Luke 9:48 Jesus states '...anyone who welcomes me, welcomes the
>>> one who sent me.'
>>>> The great majority of sayings about Jesus being sent by God all come
>>> from John's gospel which contains almost nothing that the historical
>>> Jesus ever stated. Even so there is a gem ....
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> John 13:16 ...'no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is
>>> greater than the one who sent him.'
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> In the Scholars Versioon it is translated as ....
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> John 13:16 (Scholars Version)
>>>>
>>>> slaves are never better than their masters; messengers are never
>>> superior to their senders.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> The verse contains a couplet - a restatement of the same idea.
>>>>
>>>> SO ...........
>>>>
>>>> "no servant is greater than his master"
>>>>
>>>> No servant of God is greater than God.
>>>>
>>>> "no messenger is greater than the one who sent him"
>>>>
>>>> No messenger of God is greater than God.
>>>>
>>>> "slaves are never better than their masters"
>>>>
>>>> No slave of God is better than God.
>>>>
>>>> "messengers are never superior to their senders"
>>>>
>>>> No messenger of God is superior to God.
>>>>
>>>> SUMMARISED AS
>>>>
>>>> No servant / messenger / slave of God is greater better / superior to
>>> God.
>>>> IF
>>>> Jesus is God's servant / messenger / slave
>>>> THEN
>>>> Jesus cannot be greater better / superior to God
>>>>
>>>> Is Jesus therefore EQUAL to God??????
>>>>
>>>> Jesus said that he was sent only to "the lost house of Israel" -
>>> Jews. Mat 15:24
>>>> Jesus states that God has sent him ........
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Mat 10:40
>>>> Mar 9:37
>>>> Luk 9:48
>>>> Luk 10:16
>>>> Jhn 3:17
>>>> Jhn 4:34
>>>> Jhn 5:23
>>>> Jhn 5:24
>>>> Jhn 5:36
>>>> Jhn 5:37
>>>> Jhn 6:29
>>>> Jhn 6:38
>>>> Jhn 6:39
>>>> Jhn 6:40
>>>> Jhn 6:44
>>>> Jhn 6:57
>>>> Jhn 7:16
>>>> Jhn 7:28
>>>> Jhn 7:29
>>>> Jhn 7:33
>>>> Jhn 8:16
>>>> Jhn 8:18
>>>> Jhn 8:26
>>>> Jhn 8:29
>>>> Jhn 8:42
>>>> Jhn 9:4
>>>> Jhn 11:42
>>>> Jhn 12:45
>>>> Jhn 12:49
>>>> Jhn 13:20
>>>> Jhn 14:24
>>>> Jhn 15:21
>>>> Jhn 16:5
>>>> Jhn 17:3
>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>> Jhn 17:21
>>>> Jhn 17:23
>>>> Jhn 17:25
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Note that the majority of the sayings are from John's gospel.
>>>>
>>>> Specifically Jesus states that the prophet Isaiah spoke about God
>>> sending him ....
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Luk 4:18
>>>> 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.
>>> Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written:
>>>> 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to
>>> bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty
>>> to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,
>>>> 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord.
>>>> 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant
>>> and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him.
>>>> 21 Then he began to speak to them, 'This text is being
>>> fulfilled today even while you are listening.'
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jesus sends out others
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Luk 9:2
>>>> Luk 10:1
>>>> Luk 22:8
>>>> Luk 22:35
>>>> Jhn 17:18
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> Jesus states Jhn 20:21 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.'
>>>>
>>>> Jesus says in Jhn 6:57 "the living Father sent me and I draw life
>>> from the Father"
>>>> Jesus states in Jhn 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I can judge
>>> only as I am told to judge, and my judging is just, because I seek to do
>>> not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
>>>> Jhn 12:44 "Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one
>>> who sent me"
>>>> MOST IMPORTANTLY Jesus states ....
>>>> ####################################################
>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>> believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought
>>> to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God,
>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
>>>> ###################################
>>>>
>>>> How does one obtain eternal life?
>>>>
>>>> Believe in / know the one who sent Jesus - the only true God.
>>>>
>>>> COMBINING Jhn 20:21 & Jhn 6:57 in SUMMARY
>>>>
>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>> from the Father"
>>>> Jesus cannot be God because the "ONLY true God" (ONE GOD) sent Jesus
>>> with a message. That message is ...
>>>> ####################################################
>>>> Jhn 5:24 In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and
>>> BELIEVES IN THE ONE WHO SENT ME [GOD], has eternal life; without being
>>> brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
>>>> Jhn 17:3 And eternal life is this: to KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
>>> and Jesus Christ whom you have SENT.
>>>> "As the Father sent Jesus, so Jesus is sending you and you draw life
>>> from the Father"
>>>> ###################################
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Mordecai!
>>>>
>>>> I have not read John's gospel for a long time as it contains next to
>>> nothing that the historic Jesus of Nazareth ever said ... and yet it
>>> does contain a profound truth about Jesus and God.
>>>> I wonder if anyone can answer this post.
>>>>
>>> #496
>>> --- reproach.
>>> --- Levithon; a serpent, crocodile, sea monster.
>>> --- Kingdom, the name of the 10th Sephira. Malkut. It corresponds to the
>>> Union of the Whole Body of Adam Qadmon, although some say to the Anus.
>>> --- royal consorts or wives of a king who were of royal birth
>>> --- reign
>>> --- a kingdom, realm
>>> --- royally, in royal state
>>> --- his precepts.
>>> --- they make deep a revolt.
>>>
>>> I <***@home0000496> wrote:
>>>> "Mordecai" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now we are into "fruits" or "outcomes."
>>>>> One outcome of trinity - they have rejected the language of the Jews.
>>>>> Another - they erected barriers to prevent preaching to Jews,
>>>>> demanding we give
>>>>> up our language to speak their language ... so the only way Jew can
>>>>> get to JC is
>>>>> to "give up their primary advantage."
>>>> When a Christian speaks about the "Old Testament" it is as if they have
>>>> destroyed the whole heritage of Jesus and substituted Disneyfied
>>>> "do-you-want-fries-with-that" gobbledegook in its place. The "Old
>>>> Testament" is no longer Jewish but 21st century Anglo-Saxon Christian.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned that they go to the wrong person ... gee whizz. They are
>>>>> supposed to go to the G_d using the name father ...
>>>> ... and instead of going to the Father they go to Jesus and remain
>>>> there. It is like Jews worshipping Moses and not going to God. It is
>>>> forbidden for Jews to worship Moses yet Jesus worship is actively
>>>> encouraged by Christians.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Lack of knowledge about names
>>>>
>>>> In Christianity God does not have a name - only a title - "Lord".
>>>>
>>>> That same title is also shared by Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>
>>>> Though Jesus addressed God as "Father" the only time that a Christian
>>>> is likely to use that address is when the Lord's Prayer is said. Most
>>>> of the time God is addressed as "Lord" or "God".
>>>>
>>>> Jews address God as "Lord our God, King of the universe" in their
>>>> Prayer Book. My copy is the "Authorised Daily Prayer Book of the United
>>>> Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth of Nations" (Eyre &
>>>> Spottiswoods: 1962 .. a strange story about how it was given to me as a
>>>> new Christian in the early 70s). From the first page - On putting on
>>>> the Tallith - "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe"
>>>> p.1. The same phrase is repeated many times thereafter right up to the
>>>> last "Night Prayer for Young Children" p. 439 where again is found the
>>>> Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One" alongside of
>>>> "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe".
>>>>
>>>> The "our" in the Lord's Prayer which addresses God as "our Father" and
>>>> the "our" in the Shema's "the Lord our God" were both referenced to
>>>> Jews and not to Christians. Christians have appropriated that "our" to
>>>> mean the Christian's "Father" and "Lord".
>>>>
>>>> Worse that that the Christian's "Father" and "Lord" has been swapped
>>>> for "Jesus" and "Lord Jesus".
>>>>
>>>> Christians have a name and title for Jesus but a shared title and no
>>>> name for God. God's name is not mentioned in the New Testament. Look
>>>> it up in a concordance. "Name of the Lord" referring to God's name is
>>>> used in the Old Testament but "name of the lord" referring to Jesus is
>>>> used in the New Testament and more often than not it is "name of the
>>>> lord Jesus". (Note: The Greek in the New Testament has no capital
>>>> letters. It can be either "lord" or "Lord".)
>>>>
>>>> Acts 17 Paul is said to have stated:
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> 22 So Paul stood before the whole council of the Areopagus and
>>>> made this speech: 'Men of Athens, I have seen for myself how extremely
>>>> scrupulous you are in all religious matters,
>>>> 23 because, as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments,
>>>> I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In
>>>> fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.
>>>> 24 'Since the God who made the world and everything in it is
>>>> himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines
>>>> made by human hands.
>>>> 25 Nor is he in need of anything, that he should be served by
>>>> human hands; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything --
>>>> including life and breath -- to everyone.
>>>> 26 From one single principle he not only created the whole human
>>>> race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the
>>>> times and limits of their habitation.
>>>> 27 And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by
>>>> feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is
>>>> not far from any of us,
>>>> 28 since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as
>>>> indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.
>>>> 29 'Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for
>>>> thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone
>>>> that has been carved and designed by a man.
>>>> 30 'But now, overlooking the times of ignorance, God is telling
>>>> everyone everywhere that they must repent .... "
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is interesting for Paul states "the unknown God you revere is the
>>>> one I proclaim to you". One can revere God whom you do not know.
>>>>
>>>> Paul then goes on to state: "the God who made the world and everything
>>>> in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth" which echoes "Lord God, King
>>>> of the universe".
>>>>
>>>> Next Paul states "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks
>>>> like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and
>>>> designed by a man." This God cannot have a image made of Him for it is
>>>> utterly impossible to make any type of image of this God. However,
>>>> Jesus of Nazareth HAS had thousands of images. "Anything in gold,
>>>> silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man" CAN be made
>>>> to look like Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" cannot therefore be the
>>>> same as Jesus of Nazareth.
>>>>
>>>> "The God who made the world and everything in it .... Lord of heaven
>>>> and earth" / "Lord God, King of the universe" has a name and that name
>>>> is NOT Jesus.
>>>>
>>
Sensi
2009-07-17 15:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Abby wrote:

> Mark, I am not going to banter over this with you because even if you do
> not believe in a Triune God you still act and treat people as though you
> honor No God at all. Why is that? You are so mean.



Sensi:
People that worship the Triune God are mean and often the
meanest and treat people that don't worship a triune God as
worthless sinners. They're always firing up the ovens.
Abby
2009-07-17 16:44:24 UTC
Permalink
"Sensi" <***@home.com> wrote in message
news:***@accessus.net...
> Abby wrote:
>
>> Mark, I am not going to banter over this with you because even if
>> you do not believe in a Triune God you still act and treat people
>> as though you honor No God at all. Why is that? You are so mean.
>
>
>
> Sensi:
> People that worship the Triune God are mean and often the meanest
> and treat people that don't worship a triune God as worthless
> sinners. They're always firing up the ovens.

How would you know, you know nothing except the clouds you have
floating in your head.
Abby
Sensi
2009-07-17 18:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Abby wrote:
>
> "Sensi" <***@home.com> wrote in message
> news:***@accessus.net...
>> Abby wrote:
>>
>>> Mark, I am not going to banter over this with you because even if you
>>> do not believe in a Triune God you still act and treat people as
>>> though you honor No God at all. Why is that? You are so mean.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sensi:
>> People that worship the Triune God are mean and often the meanest and
>> treat people that don't worship a triune God as worthless sinners.
>> They're always firing up the ovens.
>
> How would you know, you know nothing except the clouds you have floating
> in your head.
> Abby


Sensi:
Its not so much the triune God people worship as it is the
bad behavior they use in trying to enforce the belief.
A person doesn't have to come to far down to take notice.
Dr. House
2009-07-17 17:10:35 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 8:31 am, Sensi <***@home.com> wrote:
> Abby wrote:
> > Mark, I am not going to banter over this with you because even if you do
> > not believe in a Triune God you still act and treat people as though you
> > honor No God at all.  Why is that?  You are so mean.
>
> Sensi:
> People that worship the Triune God are mean and often the
> meanest and treat people that don't worship a triune God as
> worthless sinners.

Not all of them. Some Trinitarians are quite nice. The danger is in
holding a belief at a fanatical level - that their opinion is the one
an only legitimate opinion.

> They're always firing up the ovens.

It's a local thing. There seems to be about a half dozen fanatics in
ACC who want conflict. That they are Trinitarian is a coincidence.
We could find fanatics in many different schools of thought.
Sensi
2009-07-17 18:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Dr. House wrote:
> On Jul 17, 8:31 am, Sensi <***@home.com> wrote:
>> Abby wrote:
>>> Mark, I am not going to banter over this with you because even if you do
>>> not believe in a Triune God you still act and treat people as though you
>>> honor No God at all. Why is that? You are so mean.
>> Sensi:
>> People that worship the Triune God are mean and often the
>> meanest and treat people that don't worship a triune God as
>> worthless sinners.
>
> Not all of them. Some Trinitarians are quite nice. The danger is in
> holding a belief at a fanatical level - that their opinion is the one
> an only legitimate opinion.
>

Sensi:
I very much want to agree with you but I can't right now.
There seems to be this sticky, gooey, tar like substance
hanging around them where their minds just drip with this
proud haughty arrogance that you my friend are going to hell.
While I, you sob, am going to heaven because I'm born again
ha ha and you are not and cannot ever be unless you follow
me and do as I have done. So taunting at times I just want
to slap them off their man-made pedestal.
I know good and well that being born again is not that
type of person.. no matter how many church services they
attend or how many bible verses are quoted and thrown in
your face you just know better.

But as you say some people are nice as long as you don't
read them bible verses that contradict the Bible verse they
read to you.
> ;-)
>
I know I should be nicer and let them do their suffering
while I do mine but someone has to continue to throw out
other ideas or it would be a sad world if you only had
one set of ideas to follow with the worst behavior to boot.


>> They're always firing up the ovens.
>
> It's a local thing. There seems to be about a half dozen fanatics in
> ACC who want conflict. That they are Trinitarian is a coincidence.
> We could find fanatics in many different schools of thought.
>

Sensi:
I know. I've heard it said that you have to fail before you
can rise.
More what I was getting at is not so much the belief in a
trinity as that is not that necessary but how the people
would go about forcing you to believe something by using the
worst behavior on the planet and then calling it the work of
God.




Ok. I'll go to the closet and drag out my "Be Tolerant"
suit." No, perhaps I should wear the other cloak that says
*for patience wear this*. Or perhaps I should just get
naked and let God dress me for the day.
You know that brings to mind that we do choose what we
want to wear. If you see me wearing arrogance would you
please ask me to change my garment. Thank You and I know you
would in the way it's meant for the goodness of *all*
concerned like Jesus would.
Mordecai
2009-07-17 00:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Abby wrote:

> "I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
> news:4a5fb0ac$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> > "((Matt))" wrote:
> >
> >>>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
> >>>>
> >>>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
> >>>>
> >>>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
> >>>> Hallowed be Your name.
> >>>> Your kingdom come.[b]
> >>>> Your will be done
> >>>> On earth as it is in heaven.
> >>>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
> >>>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
> >>>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
> >>>> And do not lead us into temptation,
> >>>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
> >>
> >> Christians do not just the hate filled.
> >
> >
> > Jesus said to pray to the Father so WHY do some Christians pray to
> > Jesus instead????
>
> Because the Bible says you cannot get to the Father without going
> through the Son who is of course Jesus.
> I pray to the Father, the Triune God.
>
> Abby

Umm - is "the father" the "triune god?"
What is the name of your triune god?


--
Mordecai!

When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
I
2009-07-17 01:19:57 UTC
Permalink
"Mordecai" <"mldavis(please dont spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote:

> Umm - is "the father" the "triune god?"

Not according to the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4-5 which Jesus quoted as being
the greatest commandment.


> What is the name of your triune god?

OBVIOUSLY, the "triune god" is Jesus.

What are the three parts that make up Jesus????

It can't be the One God Jesus mentions in Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

THE TRIUNE JESUS AS GOD:
- the Pre-Easter Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus as a human)
- the Post-Easter Christ of Faith (Jesus as god - invented after Jesus'
death)
- the Present Jesus (Jesus living in a Christian's physical heart now)

None of them are the Father God whom Jesus spoke about in the Greatest
Commandment and the Lord's Prayer.

ANOTHER QUESTION .........

Matthew 26:30 says that the apostles and Jesus "sang a hymn".

WHO did they sing the hymn to?

Was it a Jesus Jingle to Jesus?????

If so, why did Jesus sing a hymn to himself?????


--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Abby
2009-07-17 14:25:13 UTC
Permalink
"I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
news:4a5fd1bb$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Mordecai" <"mldavis(please dont spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote:
>
>> Umm - is "the father" the "triune god?"
>
> Not according to the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4-5 which Jesus quoted
> as being the greatest commandment.
>
>
>> What is the name of your triune god?
>
> OBVIOUSLY, the "triune god" is Jesus.
>
> What are the three parts that make up Jesus????
>
> It can't be the One God Jesus mentions in Deuteronomy 6:4-5.
>
> THE TRIUNE JESUS AS GOD:
> - the Pre-Easter Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus as a human)
> - the Post-Easter Christ of Faith (Jesus as god - invented after
> Jesus' death)
> - the Present Jesus (Jesus living in a Christian's physical heart
> now)
>
> None of them are the Father God whom Jesus spoke about in the
> Greatest Commandment and the Lord's Prayer.
>
> ANOTHER QUESTION .........
>
> Matthew 26:30 says that the apostles and Jesus "sang a hymn".
>
> WHO did they sing the hymn to?
>
> Was it a Jesus Jingle to Jesus?????
>
> If so, why did Jesus sing a hymn to himself?????
>
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

they sang to God the Father.
Abby
2009-07-17 17:00:34 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h3q20f$14f$***@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "I" <***@home0000478> wrote in message
> news:4a5fd1bb$***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> "Mordecai" <"mldavis(please dont spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Umm - is "the father" the "triune god?"
>>
>> Not according to the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4-5 which Jesus quoted
>> as being the greatest commandment.
>>
>>
>>> What is the name of your triune god?
>>
>> OBVIOUSLY, the "triune god" is Jesus.
>>
>> What are the three parts that make up Jesus????
>>
>> It can't be the One God Jesus mentions in Deuteronomy 6:4-5.
>>
>> THE TRIUNE JESUS AS GOD:
>> - the Pre-Easter Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus as a human)
>> - the Post-Easter Christ of Faith (Jesus as god - invented after
>> Jesus' death)
>> - the Present Jesus (Jesus living in a Christian's physical heart
>> now)
>>
>> None of them are the Father God whom Jesus spoke about in the
>> Greatest Commandment and the Lord's Prayer.
>>
>> ANOTHER QUESTION .........
>>
>> Matthew 26:30 says that the apostles and Jesus "sang a hymn".
>>
>> WHO did they sing the hymn to?
>>
>> Was it a Jesus Jingle to Jesus?????
>>
>> If so, why did Jesus sing a hymn to himself?????
>>
>>
>> --
>> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
>> http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>>
>> MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
>> http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
>
> they sang to God the Father.

Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy Spirit
to guide you to all truth.

Abby
Dr. House
2009-07-17 17:06:27 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 10:00 am, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]
> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
> what do you use as your authority?  Is it the Bible?  If it is, You
> cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy Spirit
> to guide you to  all truth.

Why is that?
Abby
2009-07-17 19:50:58 UTC
Permalink
"Dr. House" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6ff911d0-463c-4944-a9a7-***@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 17, 10:00 am, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]
> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
> what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
> cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy
> Spirit
> to guide you to all truth.

Because if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the
only way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what
the Bibile teaches as a whole.

Abby

Why is that?
I
2009-07-17 23:10:58 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Because if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the only
> way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what the Bibile
> teaches as a whole.


What utter illogical irrational nonsense!

"God stands, omnipotent and free, above his Bible" - Carl Jung

The bible is a collection of books written over hundreds of years by many
different authors and EDITED by many different authors. Fundamentalists
refuse to understand how their bible was formed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BIBLE TIMELINE

Dates are approximate


OLD TESTAMENT

3000 BC
- Egyptian songs written that were the source of many of the Psalms

2000 BC
- Eclessiastes written

1900 BC
- Abraham comes to Palestine
- Beginning of oral tradition later recorded in the bible

1375 - 1358 BC
- Reign of Egyptian Pharoah Amenhotep IV ( later called Ikhnaton)
inspiration of much of Moses' writing.

1000 BC
- Bible begins to be written with Job (fiction)

960 BC
- The YAHWIST editor began in Jerusalem. He calls God YHWH and describes God
in humanlike terms. The Yahwist editor wrote Genesis 2 ( Genesis 1 had not
yet been written.). Bible heroes are not whitewashed - Abraham is called a
liar (Gen 20), Noah's drunken state is described (Gen 9) and Lot's incest is
told (Gen 19). The monarchy and priesthood in Jeruslem are important. This
editor wrote the first version of the 10 Commandments in Exodus 34 which
contains no reference to resting on the Sabbath.

850 BC
- The ELOHIST editor began in Samaria. He calls God Elohim. The
Elohist editor has a democratic value system and so asserts that no priest,
leader or king can claim permanent status over God's people. There is no
dynasty established. He starts his story with Abraham and wrote about Isaac
and Jacob. He places importance on the Northern kingdoms power and shrines.
He uses dreams, miracle and magic as a way to demonstrate God's power. He
asserts that God raises up prophets when required.

621 BC
- The DEUTERONOMIST editor began in 621 BCE in the reign of King Josiah in
Jerusalem. The "discovered" book was called the second (deuters) giving of
the Law (nomas) and became known as Deuteronomy. It was responsive to the
prophetic tradition of Hosea, Amos, Isaiah, Micah and Jeremiah (who was
alive at the time of writing). The deuteronomist editor centralised worship
under the supervision of the Jerusalem priesthood. Its interests were in a
high spiritual monotheism and therefore wrote than no image could be made of
God.

596 BC
- The PRIESTLY editors began after the city of Jerusalem fell to
Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians. Many of the Psalms were
written in this time (including Psalm 137). The priests edited and rewrote
massive parts of the sacred story. They emphasised circumcision, dietary
laws and Sabbath day observance and were responsible for writing Genesis 1
to provide a reason for observing the Sabbath and it was one of the last
parts of the Old Testament to be written. At the same time synagogues were
built to indoctrinate the people. As a result the details of worship, the
rules of worship, the observance of worship became important and resulted in
much of Exodus, almost all of Leviticus and major portions of Numbers. All
the chronologies were written by the priestly editors. The incompleted
harmonisation of the Yahwist and Elohist editors produce most of the
contradictions in the Old Testament.

200 BC
- Daniel written (fiction)

Refer to http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/

NEW TESTAMENT

27 - 34 CE
- Jesus' death

50 - 60 CE
- Sayings Gospel Q (first edition)
- Gospel of Thomas (first edition)

- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)


50 - 80 CE
- Colossians (May not be Paul)

50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews (Not Paul)


50 - 100 CE
- Gospel of Peter (first edition)
- Ergeton Gospel


60 - 70 CE
- Gospel of Signs

60 - 80 CE
Didache, the first believer's handbook (first edition)

65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
- First edition about 70 CE

################################
DESTRUCTION OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE IN 70 CE
###############################

70 - 100 CE
- James

80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul)
- Ephesians (May not be Paul)

85 CE
- Matthew's gospel
- incorporating Mark & Q


80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter

90 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea)
- incorporating Mark & Q


90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John (Not the apostle John)
- Apocalyptic genre

90 -120 CE.
- I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude
- John's Gospel
- incorporating the Gospel of Signs


100 CE
- Gospel of Mark, canonical edition

100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy (Not Paul)
- 2 Timothy (Not Paul)
- Titus (Not Paul)

- Gospel of John, third edition (insertions and additions)
- Gospel of Mary (Greek and Coptic fragments)
- Didache, second edition (insertions and additions)
- Gospel of Thomas, second edition (surving edition)
- Surviving fragment of Gospel of John (P52)
- Surviving fragments of Ergeton Gospel (PErgeton and PKoln)

100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter (Not Peter)


100-325 CE
- Emergence of four "recognized" gospels.
- Emergence of an official collection of Christian writings ("New
Testament")

Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ and Funk, Hoover& The Jesus
Seminar "The Five Gospels" (Polebridge: 1993) Figure 9 p. 128

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Peter Cameron's "Fundamentalism and Freedom" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1995.)

According to Jung , 'God stands, omnipotent and free, above his Bible." p.
131

... the Fundamentalist will never ask what lies beyond the Bible, or what
sort of religious experience was possible before there was a Bible. He
speaks and behaves as it is was impossible to be a Christian before there
was a New Testament. He may be too self-conscious to state that he believes
the Bible to have been divinely dictated, but that is really what he does
believe. pp 131-132

It is therefore much more honest (though it may well make life more
difficult) to see the Bible as result rather than beginning. ... as a matter
of historical reality the Bible is the end or a process. First, viewed as
a whole, the list of books which form the Bible was finally agreed upon only
in the fourth century AD, more than two hundred years after the latest book
in the New testament was written. And, second, viewed in its component
parts, each book of the Bible - or in many cases each part of a book - is
the result of a human creartive process akin to, or even identical with, the
production of a work of art. ... Each has his own language, and it is his
language, though the thoughts may be divine. pp. 132-133

In fact, then, the Bible is a collection, a human collection, of very human
response to the divine ... If it were literally the word of God it would be
unintelligible to us, just as divine music would be meaningless to human
ears. To speak or behave, therefore, as the Fundamentalist does, as if
Christianity is a question of responding to the Bible, is to fail to do
justice to what the Bible is - it is itself response. What the Christin is
invited to do is to make his own response to what the biblical writers were
responding to ... we only do justice to it, rather than simply obeyiong it
or imitating the responses which it contains, we allow it to form in us the
capacity to make our own unique responses. p. 134

... the Bible may be the initial impetus in the religious life of a
believer, and it may be the source to which the believer constantly returns.
But equally it may not: it is not necessarily so. There is no reason -
other than convention or Fundamentalist propaganda - why the Bible should
have a monopoly in the area of religious experience, so that 'if it's in the
Bible it must be so, and if it's not in the Bible it can't be so'. There
are other sources of revelation. p. 134

... the process of establishing which books actually belonged in the bible
was a human process: over a period of centuries the church gradually brought
itself to regard some books as having authoritative or canonical status and
to exclude others. .... There is therefore no reason in principle why flesh
and blood cannot continue the process and add new sources of revelation or
take away old ones (as Luther came very near doing when he dismissed the
letter of James as 'an epistle of straw'). p. 135

... if the Bible is the necessary and exclusive precondition for a
Christian's religious experience, it must logically follow that none of the
New Testament writers were themselves Christians, since by definition the
canonical Bible was not available to them. p. 135

We are entirely free, therefore, to explore the possibility that there are
indeed ways of approaching or understanding or questioning God which are
alternative to those contained in the Bible and which may have nothing at
all to do with the Bible and may eeven contradict it. p. 136

... a religion which considers itself bound exclusively and finally by an
arbitrary collection of documents, abruptly and artificially sealed up in
the fourth century AD, is misunderstanding its own essence and indeed
closing itself off from the God whom it professes to reveal. p. 137

... an approach which seeks to legislate on what can and cannot be called
religious experience or revelation, according to whether or not it takes its
point of departure from the Bible, is simply closing its eyes to what
actually happens. pp. 139-140

The Bible in fact, if it is approached in accordance with the spirit which
permeates it, cries out to us to use our imagination, free from all
constraints, in our search for, or response to, God. p. 140
Terry Cross
2009-07-17 23:20:40 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 4:10 pm, "I" <***@home0000493> wrote:
> "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Because if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the only
> > way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what the Bibile
> > teaches as a whole.
>
> What utter illogical irrational nonsense!
>
> "God stands, omnipotent and free, above his Bible" - Carl Jung
>
> The bible is a collection of books written over hundreds of years by many
> different authors and EDITED by many different authors. Fundamentalists
> refuse to understand how their bible was formed.

Jews refuse to understand how their bible was formed. Why do you
always pick the Old Testament over the New Testament, Mr. MT?
Barry OGrady
2009-07-17 23:40:59 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:50:58 -0400, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Dr. House" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:6ff911d0-463c-4944-a9a7-***@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>On Jul 17, 10:00 am, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>[...]
>> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
>> what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
>> cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
>> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy
>> Spirit
>> to guide you to all truth.
>
>Because if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the
>only way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what
>the Bibile teaches as a whole.

The bible is inconsistent and contradictory.

>Abby
>
>Why is that?

Why is what?
Abby
2009-07-18 11:12:44 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:50:58 -0400, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dr. House" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:6ff911d0-463c-4944-a9a7-***@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>>On Jul 17, 10:00 am, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts"
>>> but
>>> what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
>>> cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
>>> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy
>>> Spirit
>>> to guide you to all truth.
>>
>>Because if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the
>>only way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what
>>the Bibile teaches as a whole.
>
> The bible is inconsistent and contradictory.
>
>>Abby
>>
>>Why is that?
>
> Why is what?




I have not found that to be true in my life.
Abby
Dr. House
2009-07-19 20:50:46 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 4:40 pm, Barry OGrady <god_free_jones> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:50:58 -0400, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Dr. House" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:6ff911d0-463c-4944-a9a7-***@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> >On Jul 17, 10:00 am, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >[...]
> >> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
> >> what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
> >> cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
> >> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy
> >> Spirit
> >> to guide you to all truth.
[...]
> >Why is that?
>
> Why is what?

I believe that is my question preserved in her answer. I was asking
about her opinion about taking the whole Bible.
Dr. House
2009-07-19 20:48:35 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 12:50 pm, "Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
>> > what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
>> > cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
>> > entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy
>> > Spirit
>> > to guide you to all truth.
>
[edited to restore flow]
>
>> Why is that?
>
> Because if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the
> only way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what
> the Bibile teaches as a whole.
>
> Abby

Well, that is one of the best answers I've seen in a while. It's
nicely balanced. Good on ya. Other people may have different goals.
The Bible doesn't have to be an authority in order to learn what it
teaches.

God bless,

House
I
2009-07-20 01:53:28 UTC
Permalink
"Dr. House" wrote:

> if you choose to use the Bible as your authority, thats the
> only way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what
> the Bibile teaches as a whole.
...
> Well, that is one of the best answers I've seen in a while. It's
> nicely balanced.

The problem is that " having the Bible as your authority" is NOT the " only
way you can reach a conclusive and definitive decision on what the Bible
teaches as a whole."

Authority has absolutely nothing to do with understanding the bible.


> The Bible doesn't have to be an authority in order to learn what it
> teaches.

Anyone can read the bible.

Unfortunately, most of those who hold the bible as an "authority" and the
"word of God" don't UNDERSTAND what it says OR how it was put together and
EDITED.

--
Quoting the Bible is NOT quoting God.
Barry OGrady
2009-07-20 10:52:45 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:53:28 +1000, "I" <***@home0000501> wrote:

>--
>Quoting the Bible is NOT quoting God.
>
>--
Unless your name is Mark Tindall.
I
2009-07-20 22:50:43 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady" <***@hotmail.com> escaped from the Bozo Bin.

Back you go.

PLONK!
Barry OGrady
2009-07-21 00:33:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:50:43 +1000, "I" <***@home0000505> wrote:

>"Barry OGrady" <***@hotmail.com> escaped from the Bozo Bin.

How did that happen?

>Back you go.

Thank goodness for that.

>PLONK!

You like a snifter do you?
Terry Cross
2009-07-21 00:54:23 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 20, 5:33 pm, Barry OGrady <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:50:43 +1000, "I" <***@home0000505> wrote:
> >"Barry OGrady" <***@hotmail.com> escaped from the Bozo Bin.
>
> How did that happen?
>
> >Back you go.
>
> Thank goodness for that.
>
> >PLONK!
>
> You like a snifter do you?

He can handle only the people who agree with him.

"Silence!" roared the Red King, plugging both ears.

TCross
I
2009-07-17 23:03:07 UTC
Permalink
"Dr. House" wrote:

>> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but
>> what do you use as your authority? Is it the Bible? If it is, You
>> cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
>> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy Spirit
>> to guide you to all truth.
>
> Why is that?


It is fundamentalist man-made dogma that must be believed in order to be a
"Trew Kristyun".

It is NEVER stated in the bible.

For fundamentalists the bible book is more important in practise than God or
the human whom God sent (Jesus).

HOW did Abraham, the Father of Faith, know God when he had no bible and no
Jesus??????


--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
I
2009-07-17 22:58:59 UTC
Permalink
"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:


> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but what
> do you use as your authority?

Truth.

All truth is God's truth - no matter where it is found.

All that is not true is not God's truth - even if it is in the Bible.

Truth is the only authority that matters.


> Is it the Bible?

Nope!

--
The Bible ...[is] ... a collection of human responses to God (very human,
some of them all too human), which we are at liberty to use in the process
of formulating our own individual, unique response to God. We don't do that
by imitating these responses slavishly. I mean God, if he exists, doesn't
want innumerable clones of the apostle Paul. He wants us to respond to him,
each of us in our own unique way. And we can use the Bible to do that, but
we don't do it by obeying it slavishly and blindly. - Peter Cameron
"Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 195

> You cannot pick and choose what you wish to believe you must take the
> entire Bible and put it together as a whole and allow the Holy Spirit to
> guide you to all truth.

Utter nonsense! Of course an intelligent Cheristian always picks and
chooses truth from error. That's why God gave you a mind - to use!

Even the writers of the bible never believed the whole bible but borrowed
from each other and changed what the other said. This is particularly true
of the gospels where we don't have three eyewitness accounts but one second
hand story - Mark's gospel (who MAY have Peter as a source) - that is then
pinched and edited by Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke's gospels are
Mark's gospel retold! John's gospel is a work of fiction loosely based upon
Mark's gospel.

Nor is ALL the bible equal. Jews place the Law (Torah) as the main priority
THEN the Prophets (excluding Daniel) and LASTLY the Writings. It the same
manner one hardly hears any sermoan from Numbers but heaps from Romans. The
percentage of usage is an indication of worth.

Of course, authentic words of Jesus of Nazareth in Mark's gospel SHOULD take
precedence over the subjective opinions of Paul who never met Jesus of
Nazareth ... though the opposite occurs with fundamentalists.

Fundamentalists don't like to hear that scholarly truth but that is not
surprising ....

--
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
(a) a very stong emphasis on the inerrancy of the Bible, the absence from it
of any sort of error;
(b) a strong hostility to modern theology and to the methods, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible;
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
Barry OGrady
2009-07-17 23:43:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:58:59 +1000, "I" <***@home0000493> wrote:

>"Abby" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Mark, I read a lot of your homepage and a lot of your "thoughts" but what
>> do you use as your authority?
>
>Truth.
>
>All truth is God's truth - no matter where it is found.

All lies are God's lies - no matter where found.

All hate is God's hate.

>All that is not true is not God's truth - even if it is in the Bible.
>
>Truth is the only authority that matters.

But your cult depends on lies.
Terry Cross
2009-07-16 23:55:52 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 16, 3:58 pm, "I" <***@home0000478> wrote:
> "((Matt))" wrote:
> >>> Luke 11:2-4 (New King James Version)
>
> >>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>
> >>>      Our Father in heaven,[a]
> >>>      Hallowed be Your name.
> >>>      Your kingdom come.[b]
> >>>      Your will be done
> >>>      On earth as it is in heaven.
> >>>       3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
> >>>       4 And forgive us our sins,
> >>>      For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
> >>>      And do not lead us into temptation,
> >>>      But deliver us from the evil one." [c]
>
> >>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>
> > Christians do not just the hate filled.
>
> Jesus said to pray to the Father so WHY do some Christians pray to Jesus
> instead????

On what authority do you claim that Christians pray to Jesus? Do you
listen at keyholes? Peek into windows? Open other people's mail?

Where is your authority?

TCross
randy
2009-07-18 05:28:55 UTC
Permalink
"I"
> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE?????? Our Jesus
> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
> Christ)
> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus...

Despite the hostile atmosphere you create with your post, you raise some
very good questions. Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of God
the Father? I would answer that it is indeed an overemphasis on the Son, as
opposed to the Father, even though one represents the other. In the prayer
Jesus suggests we pray to "the Father in heaven"--not to himself on earth,
nor even to himself in heaven. So your point is well taken.

I do think there is an imbalance that is created when Christians calls out
to Jesus, to the exclusion of the Father. Jesus is not just some kind of
heavenly butler we can call out to, who will do any miracle, or any act of
deliverance, simply by request. On the other hand, if we realize that Jesus
came to show us complete obedience to his Father, then we know that the
*way* we are to pray is according to the Father's will, in which case we
*will* see answers to our prayers.

> Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come...

Yes, the "any-moment Rapture of the church" is a fraud conceived and
perpetrated on the church since the 1800s. We are indeed to pursue the
Kingdom of God, which has *already* been made available to us when we
receive the spirituality of Christ into our lives, giving us salvation. It
is at that time that our names are written in heaven.

> My fundamentalist will be done...

Fundamentalism simply wants to retain the fundamental truths as they are
taught in the NT Scriptures. None of that contradicts the Lord's Prayer.

> On earth as it is heavin'
> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle...

Don't know what this refers to?

> And forgive us our trespasses
> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"

True Christians give the same quality of spiritual love to their enemies as
they do to their own Christian brothers and sisters.
randy
I
2009-07-18 05:48:53 UTC
Permalink
"randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE?????? Our Jesus
>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
>> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
>> Christ)
>> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus...
....
> you raise some very good questions.

Of course.


> Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of God the Father? I
> would answer that it is indeed an overemphasis on the Son
...
> In the prayer Jesus suggests we pray to "the Father in heaven"--not to
> himself on earth, nor even to himself in heaven. So your point is well
> taken.


BINGO!


>> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle...
>
> Don't know what this refers to?

Those choruses (aka pop love songs) to Jesus sung in church.
randy
2009-07-18 06:34:38 UTC
Permalink
"I"
randy
>> In the prayer Jesus suggests we pray to "the Father in heaven"--not to
>> himself on earth, nor even to himself in heaven. So your point is well
>> taken.

> BINGO!

Then I guess we agree on some things.

>>> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle...

>> Don't know what this refers to?

> Those choruses (aka pop love songs) to Jesus sung in church.

Alright, but I fail to see the inherent wrong in that, or their
contradiction with the Lord's Prayer?
randy
dolf
2009-07-18 07:21:09 UTC
Permalink
The contradiction begins with "our father who art in heaven"

randy <***@wavecable.com> wrote:
>
> "I" randy
>>> In the prayer Jesus suggests we pray to "the Father in
>>> heaven"--not to himself on earth, nor even to himself in heaven.
>>> So your point is well taken.
>
>> BINGO!
>
> Then I guess we agree on some things.
>
>>>> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle...
>
>>> Don't know what this refers to?
>
>> Those choruses (aka pop love songs) to Jesus sung in church.
>
> Alright, but I fail to see the inherent wrong in that, or their
> contradiction with the Lord's Prayer? randy

I asked whether the internet identities ®andy ***@gmail.com and
'randy' ***@wavecable.com the same evangelical Christian and What is
their Real Plan?

Randy on that occasion in a discussion thread "Is This What We're
Showing'speaks on an approach to Internet Evangelism as thier words
being inconsistent with their actions. And that the participants within
the discussion are more interested in damning people who don't agree
with them than in winning them to Christ in love--Arguing for truth as
not always an act of love: "In all honesty, you seem like two people. On
the one hand, you often begin with all kinds of loving intentions. And
then suddenly, you're another person, accusing them and pressuring them
to agree with you or be condemned as a sinner." ['randy'
***@wavecable.com, 1647 hours 10 July 2007]

An individual indentified as ' ®andy' whose newsgroup posting profile
associated with www.pulpitfire.org commences June 2006) responded,
"Correct. His consistent, hypocritical, twofold approach, is to first
attack, twist, and force feed you a false version of what your own
motives and intentions are, portraying you as a vain egomaniac who needs
to be brought down. He calls this "just telling the truth". But then,
the minute anyone makes the slightest unfavorable remark about him, he
throws himself on the ground, acting like a victim who's just been
"attacked", asking "where's the love?" He does this constantly."
['®andy' ***@gmail.com, 2219 hours 10 July 2007]
randy
2009-07-22 01:52:43 UTC
Permalink
"dolf"
randy

> I asked whether the internet identities ®andy ***@gmail.com and
> 'randy' ***@wavecable.com the same evangelical Christian and What is
> their Real Plan?

Not the same person.
randy
r m
2009-07-18 06:29:04 UTC
Permalink
randy wrote:
> "I"
> > So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE?????? Our Jesus
> > who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
> > though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
> > Christ)
> > Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus...
>
> Despite the hostile atmosphere you create with your post, you raise some
> very good questions. Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of God
> the Father? I would answer that it is indeed an overemphasis on the Son, as
> opposed to the Father, even though one represents the other. In the prayer
> Jesus suggests we pray to "the Father in heaven"--not to himself on earth,
> nor even to himself in heaven. So your point is well taken.
>
> I do think there is an imbalance that is created when Christians calls out
> to Jesus, to the exclusion of the Father. Jesus is not just some kind of
> heavenly butler we can call out to, who will do any miracle, or any act of
> deliverance, simply by request. On the other hand, if we realize that Jesus
> came to show us complete obedience to his Father, then we know that the
> *way* we are to pray is according to the Father's will, in which case we
> *will* see answers to our prayers.
>
> > Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come...
>
> Yes, the "any-moment Rapture of the church" is a fraud conceived and
> perpetrated on the church since the 1800s. We are indeed to pursue the
> Kingdom of God, which has *already* been made available to us when we
> receive the spirituality of Christ into our lives, giving us salvation. It
> is at that time that our names are written in heaven.
>
> > My fundamentalist will be done...
>
> Fundamentalism simply wants to retain the fundamental truths as they are
> taught in the NT Scriptures. None of that contradicts the Lord's Prayer.

The following Five Fundamentals are not mentioned in the Lord's Prayer
AFAIK -

1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
2. The deity of Jesus Christ
3. The virgin birth of Christ
4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ
to the earth.

http://thriceholy.net/fundamentals.html









>
> > On earth as it is heavin'
> > Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle...
>
> Don't know what this refers to?
>
> > And forgive us our trespasses
> > As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>
> True Christians give the same quality of spiritual love to their enemies as
> they do to their own Christian brothers and sisters.
> randy
randy
2009-07-22 01:54:39 UTC
Permalink
"r m"
randy
>> Fundamentalism simply wants to retain the fundamental truths as they are
>> taught in the NT Scriptures. None of that contradicts the Lord's Prayer.

> The following Five Fundamentals are not mentioned in the Lord's Prayer
> AFAIK -
> 1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
> 2. The deity of Jesus Christ
> 3. The virgin birth of Christ
> 4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
> 5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ
> to the earth.

There is a lot of Christian truth *not* contained in the Lord's Prayer.
What's the point?
randy
r m
2009-07-22 03:06:24 UTC
Permalink
randy wrote:
> "r m"
> randy
> >> Fundamentalism simply wants to retain the fundamental truths as they are
> >> taught in the NT Scriptures. None of that contradicts the Lord's Prayer.
>
> > The following Five Fundamentals are not mentioned in the Lord's Prayer
> > AFAIK -
> > 1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
> > 2. The deity of Jesus Christ
> > 3. The virgin birth of Christ
> > 4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
> > 5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ
> > to the earth.
>
> There is a lot of Christian truth *not* contained in the Lord's Prayer.
> What's the point?

..... just juxtaposing some Fundamental truths against the Lord's
Prayer to see where they may clash. But, as you say, the Prayer is
not exhaustive.

Cheers.






> randy
randy
2009-07-22 04:42:58 UTC
Permalink
"r m"
randy

>> > The following Five Fundamentals are not mentioned in the Lord's Prayer
>> > AFAIK -
>> > 1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
>> > 2. The deity of Jesus Christ
>> > 3. The virgin birth of Christ
>> > 4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
>> > 5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ
>> > to the earth.

>> There is a lot of Christian truth *not* contained in the Lord's Prayer.
>> What's the point?

> ..... just juxtaposing some Fundamental truths against the Lord's
> Prayer to see where they may clash. But, as you say, the Prayer is
> not exhaustive.
> Cheers.

Okay.
randy
dolf
2009-07-22 05:02:04 UTC
Permalink
"Know, my beloved, that the devil cares only for compassing the ruin of
everyone of us, but that he does not use one and the same method of
warfare against us all. To help you to see and understand this more
clearly, I shall describe to you five inner states of people and the
corresponding wiles, and circuitous approaches and enticements of the enemy.

These states are the following: some people remain in the slavery of
sin, with no thought of liberation; others, although thinking of this
liberation and desiring it, do nothing to achieve it; there are also
people who, having been freed from the shackles of sin and having
acquired virtues, again fall into sin with still greater moral corruption.

In their self-delusion some of these latter think that, in spite of it
all, they are still advancing towards perfection; others heedlessly
abandon the path of virtue; yet others turn the very virtue they possess
into a cause and occasion of harm for themselves. The enemy influences
each of them in accordance with their state and disposition." [Lorenzo
Scupoli, Unseen Warfare as edited by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and
revised by Theophan the Recluse, p 160]

From: Jew Lad <***@hotmail.com>
Date: 21 July 2009 2:23:07 PM
To: <***@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: John Dominic has invited you to Jhoos

feel free

r m <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> randy wrote:
>> "r m"
>> randy
>>>> Fundamentalism simply wants to retain the fundamental truths as they are
>>>> taught in the NT Scriptures. None of that contradicts the Lord's Prayer.
>>> The following Five Fundamentals are not mentioned in the Lord's Prayer
>>> AFAIK -
>>> 1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
>>> 2. The deity of Jesus Christ
>>> 3. The virgin birth of Christ
>>> 4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
>>> 5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ
>>> to the earth.
>> There is a lot of Christian truth *not* contained in the Lord's Prayer.
>> What's the point?
>
> ..... just juxtaposing some Fundamental truths against the Lord's
> Prayer to see where they may clash. But, as you say, the Prayer is
> not exhaustive.
>
> Cheers.
>>
>> randy

Nous: #44
Time: 14:20 hrs
Date: 2009.10.29
Torah: #40 #2 #5 %81 = #47
Dao: Moderate Values, Setting Up Precepts
Tetra: #36 - Strength
I-Ching: H1 - Creative Principle/Heaven

Latin: Amabilis {Conservative God} Alt: Yahhael {God is the God} {
1. PROTECTS & HELPS AGAINST THOSE WISHING TO USURP THE FORTUNES OF OTHERS
2. JUSTICE, TRUTH & LIBERTY
3. PROTECTS TRUTH, LOVERS OF JURISPRUDENCE
4. Thesogar
}
Heber {The region beyond, One that passes; anger}


John Dominic is really a male named Kent (ie. of the some 6,000 I've met
over 25 years, very few men ever get to that first name stage) from
Potts Point, Sydney. A Roman Catholic who stalks gay men on the
www.manhunt.com forum, so as to interfere with our socialisation in this
private cyber space. He works for a Roman Catholic Publishing house and
claims to have a Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This diseased state of
mind held by him and openly acknowledged by him was a matter of some
considerable disconcertion, like he'd been stung by a triffid, the
evening after our initial meeting over a bottle of wine. He was
incoherent and delusional in his phone messaging and the trigger was a
momento image of a very dear friend who was also working in Sydney.

I first met Stuart from Northcote when I was planning my relocation to
Melbourne whilst I was still undergoing chemotherapy and self
administering by injection a recent technological innovation which
accelerated the production of white blood cells:

"G-CSF (granulocyte-colony stimulating factor) is an haematopoietic
growth factor. It stimulates the bone marrow to produce more white blood
cells. Growth factors are special proteins which are produced naturally
in the body. They can also be made as a drug.

One of the main side effects of chemotherapy drugs is a reduction in the
number of white blood cells. This makes your body less able to fight
infection. There is a risk that you could develop a serious infection,
which might have to be treated in hospital. If your number of blood
cells (your blood count) is low when your next dose of chemotherapy is
due, the chemotherapy may have to be postponed, or the dose lowered.

G-CSF can be given to people in this situation to stimulate the bone
marrow to produce new white cells more quickly after chemotherapy. This
can shorten the period during which you are at risk of developing a
serious infection. G-CSF is not needed with all types of chemotherapy
treatment, as the white blood cell count can often recover on its own."
[cf: We are MacMillan -- cancer support]

I had stayed overnight with this male friend and our time together was
cut short by the loss of thousands of dollars worth of G-CSF, which I
had inadvertantly placed too close to the coldest part of the
refrigerator and it had been destroyed by being frozen. I had to shorten
our weekend by the need to return to Sydney inorder to obtain a
replacement prescription. It is this continuing drive, now after 12
years, which saw me through an uncertain prognosis for a multi-regioned
High Grade Non-Hodgkins (suspected Burkitts) Lymphoma given a 10% chance
of survival, 6 months to live with 90% of all such persons deceased
within 2 years.

By contrast, it seemed so matter of fact for Kent as Jew Lad
<***@hotmail.com>. But I seldom drink and had specifically gone to a
local liquor store to obtain a triage selection of wines. He was
captivated by the Australian football, as the digital clarity on my
Apple Cinema screen and the boxed Italian produced Eye TV operating by
USB to my Apple Macintosh Pro (and just as well from an Apple Macintosh
Mini) computer.

No, the cause for his concern was the beautiful adult images of Stuart,
which as an act of willing, I had temporarily placed on my desktop in
much the same way, as I always place a person's name and mobile phone
number on the refridgerator--it greets them when they enter my house.

It was in all probability, these images of Stuart which I had
momentarily shared with him and his own relationship with Stuart (later
confirmed by a telephone text message between them), that this was the
cause for the psychological disorder manifested by Kent as Jew Lad
<***@hotmail.com> and the cause for my having specifically quoted him
as the representative "Some Roman Catholics have suggested that George
Pell and the Pope doesn't deny anyone communion" conveyed by my 21 May
2008 Grapple Document Blog Entry associated to my seeking a voluntary
psychiatric assessment of that day: "Dolf presents with a decade-long
history of a very complex and unusual belief system that is involved in
his conflict with his Insurer. I could not understand what the exact
dispute was with the Insurer--he is receiving salary continuation; it
may be that there were some aspects of this that were denied by the
Insurer, but he did not make this clear.

Given the complexity of his system and the degree to which it affects
his life, I consider him to have a delusional disorder. That is, that he
holds a very complex system of beliefs that other people do not
understand and which tends to impinge adversely on much of his life due
to his preoccupation with it. It also reflects his continuing antipathy
towards organized religion, particularly the Catholic Church [over his
presence at Archbishop Pell’s refusal of communion at Pentecost Sunday
Mass Melbourne on 31 May 1998 and 21 June 2000 as a treasonable act of
heteronomy against autonomous regulative free under the Commonwealth].

As mirroring my characterisation of Roman Catholic Religious
marriage-HETEROS Pythagorean mysticism as fraudulent Christian identity,
in having no further opportunity within the Australian Commonwealth
conveyed by an earlier protest on 27 November 2005 on the public
boundary outside the Saint Patrick's Roman Catholic Church situated at
Maffra-Briagolong Road, Briagolong. Such protest was made against the
Roman Catholic Church's similar lack of regard for religious belief as
an autonomous and sovereign Natural Law, Common Law and Constitutional
human right: “The Australian Catholic Church appears to be advocating
present day religious, political, organizational and social values that
on matters of sexuality and seventh-day Sabbatarian Everlasting Covenant
have not come to repentance on the denial of Autonomous, Sovereign,
Common Law and Constitutional Rights of others. Your claim to religious
belief is by any objective measure intrinsically morally disordered.”

Attempts by a male youth parishioner to thwart this process, by
disparaging such statements as lacking originality, and being dismissive
of seventh-day Sabbatarians went undeterred.

I had in my 20 April 2004 correspondence to the State Ombudsman of
Victoria Mr. George Brouwer, also raised concerns over a 8 April 2003
letter received from of a Doctor Jonathon Anderson. In the assumption
that this was one and the same individual who is now the Chief Executive
Officer of Sydney's Saint Vincent's Hospital as directly related to my
seeking an earlier voluntary medical opinion from Professor / Doctor
Bruce Brew, also of Saint Vincent's Hospital.

That correspondence reads: "Given its implications, as attempts to
impugn my autonomy, intervene within my regime of healthcare and as
evidence of lack of disclosure regarding the malicious action by my then
General Practitioners, on 8 April 2003 [SUPER: #427 / #81 - Making the
Essence Clear/ Propounding the Essential; I-Ching: H11 - Peace; Tetra:
#15 - Reach / EGO: #366 / #12 - Numbing Effect of the Conventional/
Abstaining from Desire; I-Ching: H6 - Conflict; Tetra: #25 - Contention]
I forwarded the entire file to Dr. Jonathon Anderson of the Carlton
Clinic, and secondarily to my general practitioner Dr. Darren Russell,
then of the Melbourne Sexual Health Clinic.

33. Although, I have to this date, received no response from Dr. Darren
Russell. In a hand written and expedited reply from Dr. Jonathon
Anderson dated 15 April 2003 [SUPER: #325 / #36 - Natural Reversals/
'Secret' Explanation; I-Ching: H4 - Youthful Inexperience; Tetra: #12 -
Youthfulness / EGO: #367 / #36 - Natural Reversals/ 'Secret'
Explanation; I-Ching: H4 - Youthful Inexperience; Tetra: #12 -
Youthfulness] he acknowledges: ‘I did receive a letter in 1996 from Mr.
Paulusse. I decided to take no action in response to his letter. With
warm regards.’

34. The view that ‘people are out to get me’ is further circumstantially
substantiated by the result of an unexpected exchange of information in
early August 2000, that was the impetus to cause me to considerably
reduce the use of my telephone and cease further avenues for intrusions
within my autonomy by reconciling and remaining statutory and regulative
responsibilities. Such as lodgment of refundable taxation returns and in
the absence of a motor vehicle, effect my driver’s licence transfer from
New South Wales to Victoria subsequent to relocation here following an
uncertain disease prognosis of 10% survival and anticipated mortality
within 6 months to 2 years given in October 1995 due to the presentation
of High Grade, Non-Hodgkins (suggesting Burkitts) Lymphoma following
fine needle biopsy."

There ought to be no further reason for me to have any contact from Kent
as Jew Lad <***@hotmail.com> as a sexually dysfunctional Roman
Catholic exhibiting psychological disturbances as claimed post traumatic
stress syndrome and I have made that abundantly clear when he contacted
me again in the weeks prior to my lease renewal. This was not the first
time that Roman Catholics have cast a shadow over the Commonwealth by
perpetuating a lack of fidelity to State in their Property and Business
transactions.

From: ***@hotmail.com
Subject: John Dominic has invited you to Jhoos
Date: 20 July 2009 4:16:54 PM
To: ***@bigpond.com


John Dominic wants to be your friend

Do you want to add John Dominic to your friends network?

Nous: #39
Time: 16:15 hrs
Date: 2009.11.26
Torah: #6 #5 #6 %81 = #17
Dao: Achieving Oneness, Root of Order
Tetra: #76 - Aggravation
I-Ching: H28 - Excess

Latin: Mirabilis {Great & High God} Alt: Natahyah {The Cutting of God} {
1. HELPS FIND PEACE AGAINST TROUBLE
2. GREAT PERSONALITIES
3. HUMILITY
4. Reno
}
Zerubbabel {Offspring of Babylon/A stranger at Babylon; dispersion of
confusion}

From: ***@bigpond.com
To: ***@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: John Dominic has invited you to Jhoos
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:14:49 +1000

Should I get further unauthorized approaches from membership of the
Roman Catholic Church, I will take the matter to the police.

I thought since we've given a brief introduction into Leonard Talmy's
excellent two volumes of 'Toward a Cognitive Semantics'

- Concept Structuring Systems
- Typology and Process in Concept Structuring

That in this the next Chapter titled 'JA HAAG', we'll develop the
BOEK(id) function further in the implementation of a GRAPPLE BIBLE
perspective of the entire vCube system from #72 ... #75 ... #584 which
appears to be an engine.

As I said previously, "before implementation phase of the Spectral
Primer I've placed into the public sphere the protocols which will be
manifested by that function as my working towards associating the
dialectic basis of human speech {ie. thesis, antithesis, synthesis and
progression as metathesis} and the extrusion of ideas to a 3-dimensional
cellular automata model as balanced ternary distributed system which
circumscribes the unity of our semantical engine for associating and
hosting religious belief and their value systems."

Today I spoke to some NSW plain clothes police about their unnecessary
and high-handed pursuit of a destitute street kid whom I complained they
were unnecessarily victimizing. I bought him his favourite BurgerFuel
Bacon Backfire burger and I challenged the police who greeted him by
name. I had the wrapper in my hand as we walked a circuit.

They recently deprived him of his money and tobacco on account of his
also having an indeterminate quantity and quality of an illicit organic
substance on his person.

I had given him $40 to help him on his way. Because he had a car window
washing implement on his person the police today again seized the money
as allegedly proceeds (ie. improbable as you only get small change for
car window washing) for those casual work actions over which he has
previously received a $50 ticket and caution by the police.

He regards me as kin (I am a father to him) and immediately came back to
my house and told me that he was later 'stripped' searched and robbed by
police from the NSW Police Kings Cross Station. We went to the corner
store and sought change so that I could again give him $40. Once upon a
time, to have no money on your person was a summary offence for which
there was a power of arrest as the crime of vagrancy.

The police said, if I wanted to lodge a complaint, I could go to Kings
Cross Police station. Since the police there are corrupt like the Saint
Kilda Police in Victoria--now why would I do that? Being intellectually
stupid, having no religious values to sustain either their oath of
office or marriages, there is a lack of comprehension as to the
metaphysical definition of force made by my paradigm as technology under
the Commonwealth and invalidating the Letters Patent.

These police need to be reminded that if they continue to show such
disrespect to me, I will not tolerate their fascism as indicative of the
character and abject haughty disdain for my Intellectual Property--You
will not speak to me unless you have read my www-page and show respect
accordingly in public as you have 'stripped' searched and subject my
guardianship to a public impunity. If there is no action to charge them
for theft and terminate their careers I will pursue them in a court of law.

Besides the past culture of bullying by the Victoria Police of social
groups was the cause for the Russell Street bombing and my experience of
a disease state and a subsequent culture of persecution by the Victoria
Police.

When this human rights issue is resolved, it will nullify the career
history and status of four Chief Commissioners.

Nous: #78
Time: 01:05 hrs
Date: 2009.4.6
Torah: #8 #5 #6 %81 = #19
Dao: Recognizing Fidelity, Trust in Faith
Tetra: #47 - Pattern
I-Ching: H59 - Dispersal

Latin: Requies {God good in himself} Alt: Momyah {Blemish of God} {
1. TO OBTAIN GRACE
2. THE EXILED, FUGITIVE & CONDEMNED PRISIONERS
3. AGAINST THIEVES AND MURDERERS
4. Thuimis
}
Perez {Divided}

- http://www.grapple.id.au/
Barry OGrady
2009-07-24 10:55:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:54:39 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>"r m"
>randy
>>> Fundamentalism simply wants to retain the fundamental truths as they are
>>> taught in the NT Scriptures. None of that contradicts the Lord's Prayer.
>
>> The following Five Fundamentals are not mentioned in the Lord's Prayer
>> AFAIK -
>> 1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
>> 2. The deity of Jesus Christ
>> 3. The virgin birth of Christ
>> 4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
>> 5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ
>> to the earth.
>
>There is a lot of Christian truth *not* contained in the Lord's Prayer.
>What's the point?

How does Christian truth differ from truth?

>randy

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Barry OGrady
2009-07-22 10:41:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:28:55 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>
>"I"
>> So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE?????? Our Jesus
>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
>> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
>> Christ)
>> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus...
>
>Despite the hostile atmosphere you create with your post, you raise some
>very good questions. Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of God
>the Father?

Christians see God as the embodiment of evil and stupidity and call upon
Jesus to protect us from God. It seems Jesus is the only thing stopping
God from unleashing even more evil on us.

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
randy
2009-07-24 03:11:38 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady"
randy
>>Despite the hostile atmosphere you create with your post, you raise some
>>very good questions. Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of
>>God
>>the Father?

> Christians see God as the embodiment of evil and stupidity and call upon
> Jesus to protect us from God. It seems Jesus is the only thing stopping
> God from unleashing even more evil on us.

No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
from the wrath of God, you have it wrong. He saved us from divine wrath, but
he wielded the same wrath that God his Father had. It was because Jesus had
the authority to bring judgment that his mercy had authority to forgive. The
one who can bring judgment is able to forgive and withdraw his judgment.
randy
Barry OGrady
2009-07-24 13:33:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:11:38 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com>
wrote:

>
>"Barry OGrady"
>randy
>>>Despite the hostile atmosphere you create with your post, you raise some
>>>very good questions. Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of
>>>God
>>>the Father?
>
>> Christians see God as the embodiment of evil and stupidity and call upon
>> Jesus to protect us from God. It seems Jesus is the only thing stopping
>> God from unleashing even more evil on us.
>
>No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
>from the wrath of God, you have it wrong.

Bible says otherwise. Bible says God's view is filtered through Jesus
which is the same as saying Jesus tries to protect us from God.

>He saved us from divine wrath, but he wielded the same wrath that God his Father had.

I can't believe Jesus would sink to the same lows as God.

>It was because Jesus had
>the authority to bring judgment that his mercy had authority to forgive.

I am disappointed. I thought Jesus knew we could only be the way God
made us.

>The one who can bring judgment is able to forgive and withdraw his judgment.

God can't judge us without judging himself.

>randy
randy
2009-07-26 15:11:05 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady"
randy
>>No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
>>from the wrath of God, you have it wrong.

> Bible says otherwise. Bible says God's view is filtered through Jesus
> which is the same as saying Jesus tries to protect us from God.

No, the Bible does not say that God's view is "filtered" through Jesus. It
says that the Father and the Son share the identical standards of judgment.
The Father granted to His Son *all* judgment. That is, they were "one," and
shared the *same* authority to judge.

So the point is not that Jesus saved us from the Father's wrath, but that he
saved us from both his and the Father's wrath. He did this by withholding
judgment against us on the condition we accept him as the model of our
salvation. When we accept him, we accept what is necessary for us to receive
mercy. We accept his righteousness as the model for our own lives, which we
receive with the spirit he is willing to give us.
randy
Barry OGrady
2009-07-28 08:21:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:11:05 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>"Barry OGrady"
>randy
>>>No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
>>>from the wrath of God, you have it wrong.
>
>> Bible says otherwise. Bible says God's view is filtered through Jesus
>> which is the same as saying Jesus tries to protect us from God.
>
>No, the Bible does not say that God's view is "filtered" through Jesus. It
>says that the Father and the Son share the identical standards of judgment.
>The Father granted to His Son *all* judgment. That is, they were "one," and
>shared the *same* authority to judge.

Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own ability?

>So the point is not that Jesus saved us from the Father's wrath, but that he
>saved us from both his and the Father's wrath.

Sounds like God and Jesus have an anger management problem.

>He did this by withholding
>judgment against us on the condition we accept him as the model of our
>salvation. When we accept him, we accept what is necessary for us to receive
>mercy. We accept his righteousness as the model for our own lives, which we
>receive with the spirit he is willing to give us.

That's very bad. If God had any decency he would have accepted responsibility
and fixed all his errors to remove all our problems. Because of God's lack of
maturity his victims get blamed instead.
The only way to get God to do the right is for Christians to put the blame for our
troubles with God where it belongs and stop blaming God's victims.

>randy

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
randy
2009-07-29 13:17:45 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady"
randy

> Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own
> ability?

Yes, particularly when he gave those pots freewill to either obey Him or
disobey Him. We are given the ability to bear our own responsibility. The
fact He gives us this option does not make Him liable even though we may
make the wrong decisions.

>>So the point is not that Jesus saved us from the Father's wrath, but that
>>he
>>saved us from both his and the Father's wrath.

> Sounds like God and Jesus have an anger management problem.

The key words here are "sounds like."

>>He did this by withholding
>>judgment against us on the condition we accept him as the model of our
>>salvation. When we accept him, we accept what is necessary for us to
>>receive
>>mercy. We accept his righteousness as the model for our own lives, which
>>we
>>receive with the spirit he is willing to give us.

> That's very bad. If God had any decency he would have accepted
> responsibility
> and fixed all his errors to remove all our problems. Because of God's lack
> of
> maturity his victims get blamed instead....

God did indeed fix the problem, by making man salvageable, despite his bad
decisions. Those who reject being salvaged simply don't deserve to be
salvaged.
randy
Barry OGrady
2009-07-31 12:05:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:17:45 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>"Barry OGrady"
>randy
>
>> Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own
>> ability?
>
>Yes, particularly when he gave those pots freewill to either obey Him or
>disobey Him.

Wouldn't that mean he would be judging himself on how well he implemented
that free will?

>We are given the ability to bear our own responsibility. The
>fact He gives us this option does not make Him liable even though we may
>make the wrong decisions.

How well is that working out for us?

>>>So the point is not that Jesus saved us from the Father's wrath, but that
>>>he saved us from both his and the Father's wrath.
>
>> Sounds like God and Jesus have an anger management problem.
>
>The key words here are "sounds like."

It certainly does. They only have a right to be angry at themselves and
even then that would show a lack of maturity. The proper thing for God
and Jesus to do would be to learn from their mistakes. A truly loving deity
would not tolerate any suffering.

>>>He did this by withholding
>>>judgment against us on the condition we accept him as the model of our
>>>salvation. When we accept him, we accept what is necessary for us to
>>>receive mercy. We accept his righteousness as the model for our own lives,
>>> which we receive with the spirit he is willing to give us.
>
>> That's very bad. If God had any decency he would have accepted
>> responsibility and fixed all his errors to remove all our problems.
>> Because of God's lack of maturity his victims get blamed instead....
>
>God did indeed fix the problem, by making man salvageable, despite his bad
>decisions.

Are we now back to where we were before the fall?

>Those who reject being salvaged simply don't deserve to be salvaged.

Would you say a Down's Syndrome child does not deserve to be cared for?

>randy

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Terry Cross
2009-08-01 01:07:19 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 31, 5:05 am, Barry OGrady <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:17:45 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:
> >"Barry OGrady"
> >randy
>
> >> Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own
> >> ability?
>
> >Yes, particularly when he gave those pots freewill to either obey Him or
> >disobey Him.
>
> Wouldn't that mean he would be judging himself on how well he implemented
> that free will?

Strictly speaking and staying within the analog, absolutely not. A
potter creates a bevy of pots and sets them aside to dry. When they
are dry and before painting them, he inspects them for flaws. He is
judging the pots, not judging himself.

After the potter paints and dries them, he inspects them again. Some
are rejected, but he is still not judging himself.

After the pots are fired, the potter inspects the pots yet again. And
he is still judging just the pots, not the kiln or himself.

You asked.

TCross
Pastor Dale K Whangke
2009-08-01 04:56:18 UTC
Permalink
"Terry Cross" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Strictly speaking


THE FUNDAMENTALIST PRAYER

Our Jesus
who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's Christ)
Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
My fundamentalist will be done
On earth as it is heavin'
Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
And forgive us our trespasses
As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"

In Jesus name

Amen

The End

PS

O Lord, please don't burn us,
Don't grill us or toast your flock,
Don't put us on a barbecue,
Or simmer us in stock,
Don't braise us or bake or boil us,
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh please don't lightly poach us,
Or baste us with hot fat,
Don't fricassee or roast us,
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don't stick thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat.

PPS
Let us praise God. Oh Lord, oooh you are so big. So absolutely huge. Gosh,
we're all really impressed down here I can tell you. Forgive us, O Lord, for
this dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery. But you are so strong and,
well, just so super. Fantastic. Amen.

In Jesus name (again)

Amen

The End

*[You HAVE to say "In Jesus name" otherwise Jesus won't hear your prayer
..... Maybe your heart is sound proofed if it isn't said ... and you MUST
end with "Amen" otherwise Jesus doesn't know when the prayer ends
....................... honest.]


--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
randy
2009-08-01 13:50:30 UTC
Permalink
"Pastor Dale K Whangke"
> THE FUNDAMENTALIST PRAYER Our Jesus...

Our *Father*....

> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...

God is omnipresent. Jesus, who is defined by *both* his humanity and his
deity is referred to by both his human and his divine qualities. He is
everywhere with an assemblage of believers through the spirit that he has
given us. And, he is in a specific location, in God's presence.

> though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's
> Christ)...

Technically, he is divine. That is, he is God's presence associated with a
specific human location, and distributed through his spirit to believers.
The "Son of God" works.

> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus...

Call on his name and be saved. But call on his name repetitively in prayer,
without being serious, and receive nothing.

> Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come...

Not all fundamentalists believe in a pretrib Rapture. But you obviously do
not make any such distinction. We look forward to the defeat of evil, and to
the coming of a holy and blessed Kingdom.

> My fundamentalist will be done...

"God's" will be done.

> On earth as it is heavin'
> Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle...

This might be something we want to offer God--not ask Him for. But certainly
not something we would offer God in an insulting spirit.

> And forgive us our trespasses
> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"

Enemies are to be forgiven when they repent--but not before. Unrepentant
people will not be forgiven until they come to the place of forgiveness. You
can't forgive someone who is still committing transgression against you.
randy
Pastor Dale K Whangke
2009-08-01 20:45:13 UTC
Permalink
"randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
> God is omnipresent. Jesus, who is defined by *both* his humanity and his >
> deity

COMPARISON BETWEEN GOD & JESUS OF NAZARETH

God is:
- everywhere (omnipresent):
- all knowing (omniscient)
- all powerful (omnipotent)
- Spirit
- eternal, self-existent
- invisible
- immutable (unchangeable)
- does not urinate, deficate or pass wind.
- does not get tired or sleep.
- does not die.
- sends but is not sent
- rules but is not ruled over
- commands but is not commanded.

BUT

The human Jesus of Nazareth is:
- confined / restricted to his human body
- doesn't know when the end will come
- heals a man in stages with spittle and dust
- cannot do miracles because of people's unbelief.
- human flesh with a spirit.
- began as a fetus inside Mary
- totally visible from his birth till his death.
- changed in the normal physical and psychological stages of all humans /
aged.
- urinated, deficated and passed wind.
- got tired and slept
- died by Roman execution.
- was sent and did not send
- is ruled over
- is commanded

Which seems to be the better God to worship?


>> Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus...
>
> Call on his name and be saved.

No. The "call on the name" passage in the Old Testament ONLY refers to
Yahweh and NOT Jesus of Nazareth.


>> My fundamentalist will be done...
>
> "God's" will be done.

To a fundamentalist the two are the same.


>> And forgive us our trespasses
>> As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>
> Enemies are to be forgiven when they repent--but not before.


" As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy." - a modern motto


--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
randy
2009-08-05 04:57:01 UTC
Permalink
"Pastor Dale K Whangke"
randy
>>> who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
>> God is omnipresent. Jesus, who is defined by *both* his humanity and his
>> > deity

> COMPARISON BETWEEN GOD & JESUS OF NAZARETH God is:
> - everywhere...BUT...The human Jesus of Nazareth is:
> - confined / restricted to his human body...

That is not an adequate comparison. An unlimited Being cannot be contrasted
with a single human revelation of His Being. In fact, the unlimited God can
have an unlimited number of facets, or revelations. His word of expression
is as vast as His deity is omnipotent.

So when you want to contrast God the Father with God the Son understand that
God created a revelation of His own person in a human form--not to cease
being infinite and divine, but rather, to show only one facet of His
infinite self in the form of a human Son.
randy
Barry OGrady
2009-08-03 13:44:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Jul 31, 5:05 am, Barry OGrady <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:17:45 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:
>> >"Barry OGrady"
>> >randy
>>
>> >> Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own
>> >> ability?
>>
>> >Yes, particularly when he gave those pots freewill to either obey Him or
>> >disobey Him.
>>
>> Wouldn't that mean he would be judging himself on how well he implemented
>> that free will?
>
>Strictly speaking and staying within the analog, absolutely not. A
>potter creates a bevy of pots and sets them aside to dry. When they
>are dry and before painting them, he inspects them for flaws. He is
>judging the pots, not judging himself.
>
>After the potter paints and dries them, he inspects them again. Some
>are rejected, but he is still not judging himself.
>
>After the pots are fired, the potter inspects the pots yet again. And
>he is still judging just the pots, not the kiln or himself.

I see what you are saying. God has lots of power but very little ability.
Just like the maker of integrated circuits God has to test each one.
Unlike the maker of integrated circuits God has no way to improve
himself.
So far God has a 100% failure rate which pretty much sums it up.
Still, God is in no position to judge us.

>You asked.

I thank you for your answer.

>TCross

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Terry Cross
2009-08-04 17:25:19 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 3, 6:44 am, Barry OGrady <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 31, 5:05 am, Barry OGrady <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:17:45 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:
> >> >"Barry OGrady"
> >> >randy
>
> >> >> Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own
> >> >> ability?
>
> >> >Yes, particularly when he gave those pots freewill to either obey Him or
> >> >disobey Him.
>
> >> Wouldn't that mean he would be judging himself on how well he implemented
> >> that free will?
>
> >Strictly speaking and staying within the analog, absolutely not. A
> >potter creates a bevy of pots and sets them aside to dry. When they
> >are dry and before painting them, he inspects them for flaws. He is
> >judging the pots, not judging himself.
>
> >After the potter paints and dries them, he inspects them again. Some
> >are rejected, but he is still not judging himself.
>
> >After the pots are fired, the potter inspects the pots yet again. And
> >he is still judging just the pots, not the kiln or himself.
>
> I see what you are saying. God has lots of power but very little ability.
> Just like the maker of integrated circuits God has to test each one.
> Unlike the maker of integrated circuits God has no way to improve
> himself.
> So far God has a 100% failure rate which pretty much sums it up.
> Still, God is in no position to judge us.
>
> >You asked.
>
> I thank you for your answer.

This is a problem of conception. "Perfect God" is a contradiction in
terms. Since "perfect" means "completed created" or "completely
finished," the word is inapplicable to an uncreated God.

Your syllogism presumes that an all-powerful God would not be able to
defeat his own omnipotence, but this is not demonstrable. The
conception is admittedly a paradox. Yet Creation, as it exists, is
evidence that if there is a God, he has successfully defeated his own
will insofar as creating an imperfect universe and autonomous (self-
willed) beings.

But some alternative conceptions are equally problematic: A universe,
without will or purpose, evolved beings that apparently have both.

Or in another vision, perhaps those beings that believe they have
will, intention, and purpose, have none of those qualities by reason
of their nature. Nevertheless, in a universe devoid of purpose, those
purposeless beings imagine in vivid detail those qualities they call
will, intention, and purpose. This also is a paradox, but apparently
a paradox that you find more comfortable.

TCross
Barry OGrady
2009-07-28 08:21:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:11:38 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>"Barry OGrady"
>randy

Sometimes.

>>>Despite the hostile atmosphere you create with your post, you raise some
>>>very good questions. Why is Jesus emphasized, almost to the exclusion of
>>>God the Father?
>
>> Christians see God as the embodiment of evil and stupidity and call upon
>> Jesus to protect us from God. It seems Jesus is the only thing stopping
>> God from unleashing even more evil on us.
>
>No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
>from the wrath of God, you have it wrong. He saved us from divine wrath, but
>he wielded the same wrath that God his Father had.

The bible does seem to support that, however isn't it a common belief that
God sees our sin through Jesus?

>It was because Jesus had
>the authority to bring judgment that his mercy had authority to forgive.

I didn't give Jesus any authority, and as cocreator Jesus is in no position
to judge us. We can only be the way we were created. If God has a problem
with us it is because he made us that way.

>The one who can bring judgment is able to forgive and withdraw his judgment.

I see no point in forgiving God.

>randy

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
randy
2009-07-29 13:29:51 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady"
randy
>>No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
>>from the wrath of God, you have it wrong. He saved us from divine wrath,
>>but
>>he wielded the same wrath that God his Father had.

> The bible does seem to support that, however isn't it a common belief that
> God sees our sin through Jesus?

There are a lot of Christian catch-phrases that are coined and used to
express things in shorthand. Unfortunately, they continue to be passed along
by Christians who don't fully appreciate the ideas they convey.

When Christians say God sees our sin through Jesus what they should be
describing is the fact that Jesus perfectly represented the attitude God has
*always had* towards sin. Since Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God has been
using men to represent Him and His own attitude towards sin.

However, until Christ came on the scene, no man had ever been able to
*perfectly* depict God's patience, compassion, and love. The whole idea
behind salvation is that it must be based on a righteousness that
*perfectly* expresses God's attitude towards sin. In this way, God can have
a man who perfectly expresses His mercy towards sin. And He can also give
this man the ability to transmit his own righteousness into imperfect men
who accept God's mercy.

>>It was because Jesus had
>>the authority to bring judgment that his mercy had authority to forgive.

> I didn't give Jesus any authority, and as cocreator Jesus is in no
> position
> to judge us. We can only be the way we were created. If God has a problem
> with us it is because he made us that way.

No, we were given freewill, in the image of God Himself.

>>The one who can bring judgment is able to forgive and withdraw his
>>judgment.

> I see no point in forgiving God.

He can only forgive you. He has made no mistakes--not even in making you.
randy
Barry OGrady
2009-07-31 12:05:52 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:29:51 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>"Barry OGrady"
>randy

Sometimes.

>>>No, if that's your crude way of saying Christians believe Jesus saved us
>>>from the wrath of God, you have it wrong. He saved us from divine wrath,
>>>but he wielded the same wrath that God his Father had.
>
>> The bible does seem to support that, however isn't it a common belief that
>> God sees our sin through Jesus?
>
>There are a lot of Christian catch-phrases that are coined and used to
>express things in shorthand. Unfortunately, they continue to be passed along
>by Christians who don't fully appreciate the ideas they convey.
>
>When Christians say God sees our sin through Jesus what they should be
>describing is the fact that Jesus perfectly represented the attitude God has
>*always had* towards sin. Since Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God has been
>using men to represent Him and His own attitude towards sin.

Duke won't accept that God has a communications problem.

>However, until Christ came on the scene, no man had ever been able to
>*perfectly* depict God's patience, compassion, and love. The whole idea
>behind salvation is that it must be based on a righteousness that
>*perfectly* expresses God's attitude towards sin. In this way, God can have
>a man who perfectly expresses His mercy towards sin.

Why is there only one like Jesus? Did God exhaust himself when he
created Jesus, or could God solve all our problems by making us all
like Jesus?
If we were all like Jesus God would be pleased with us and there would
no cause for anger and no need for salvation.

>And He can also give
>this man the ability to transmit his own righteousness into imperfect men
>who accept God's mercy.

The real problem, then, is that God is unable to express his love in ways
that benefit us.

>>>It was because Jesus had
>>>the authority to bring judgment that his mercy had authority to forgive.
>
>> I didn't give Jesus any authority, and as cocreator Jesus is in no
>> position to judge us. We can only be the way we were created.
>> If God has a problem with us it is because he made us that way.
>
>No, we were given freewill, in the image of God Himself.

Is God responsible for how well our freewill is working for us?
How well are things working for us?

>>>The one who can bring judgment is able to forgive and withdraw his
>>>judgment.
>
>> I see no point in forgiving God.
>
>He can only forgive you.

Will God forgive us for being the way he made us?
Could all our problems be due to God's inability to forgive himself?

>He has made no mistakes--not even in making you.

That's a terrible thing to say about God. It means all our problems are
due to a deliberate act by God. No wonder God seems unable to fix
all our problems in spite of his awesome power.

>randy

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
randy
2009-08-01 14:01:06 UTC
Permalink
"Barry OGrady"
randy

> Duke won't accept that God has a communications problem.

A problem with communication is what both you and I have--not God. Neither
is He going to speak clearly to you when you play games. You wouldn't give a
gun to a burglar to shoot you with. Neither will God give you an argument
you intend only to pick holes in.

> Why is there only one like Jesus? Did God exhaust himself when he
> created Jesus, or could God solve all our problems by making us all
> like Jesus?...

God could've probably made an infinite number of Jesuses. He made only one
for His own reasons. Apparently that's all He wanted and all we needed.

Human beings are finite and need a finite reference point. We do not need 50
million road signs saying the same thing. In fact, we get less confused when
there is only one sign indicating "dangerous curve" instead of five of the
same.

How many times do you need to be told to repent? How many prophets does it
take to inform you what you should repent of? But we only needed one
*perfect* and one *divine* messiah to tell us our sins and of the need to
repent.

All imperfect human beings can do some of the job, but do not do so free of
all hypocrasy. Only one perfectly represented God's love, and we needed him
for salvation, because only his spirit is the right testimony that leads to
eternal life. All other human testimonials fall short of what is needed for
eternal life. All sin much come to an end.

> If we were all like Jesus God would be pleased with us and there would
> no cause for anger and no need for salvation.

Certainly if there had been no Fall there would've been no need for
salvation. Now, even with salvation, we still have to die, and we still have
to look to the mercy of one who has the power to raise us from the dead.

> Is God responsible for how well our freewill is working for us?
> How well are things working for us?

Things have not gone very well. We do have a spirit available to us that can
help us to be like God, the spirit of Jesus. And this spirit can give us
confidence that a new day is coming when we will be raised from the dead, to
get a 2nd chance.
randy
Pastor Dale K Whangke
2009-08-01 21:10:17 UTC
Permalink
"randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

> A problem with communication is what both you and I have--not God.

God does not have a larynx so God cannot speak to us ... unless you believe,
as fundamentalists do, that the human Jesus of Nazareth is God.

God does not have a hand so God cannpt write a bible .... ... unless you
believe, as fundamentalists do, that the human Paul, who never met Jesus of
Nazareth, knows more abourt Jesus than the apostles who lived with him.


> God could've probably made an infinite number of Jesuses. He made only >
> one for His own reasons. Apparently that's all He wanted and all we
> needed.
> Human beings are finite and need a finite reference point.

Herein is the BIG problem.

Just like the children of Israel who substiututed a finite idol ( a golden
calf) for the infinite invisible One God Yahweh, modern fundamentalists have
subsituited a a finite idol (the human Jesus of Nazareth) for the infinite
invisible One God Yahweh.

The sin is exactly the same. Human beings are finite and ewahnted a finite
reference point instead of the ininite One God Yahweh.


> But we only needed one *perfect* and one *divine* messiah to tell us our
> sins and of the need to repent.

Unfortunately Jesus of Nazareth ONLY went to the Jews during his lifetime.
Pau, who never met Jesus of nazareth, took the message to the Gentiles.


> Only one perfectly represented God's love, and we needed him for salvation

Not according to Jesus of Nazareth ..........

#############################################

And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and because
he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked him, 'Of all the
commandments, which is the most important?'

Jesus answered: "The first is 'Hear, Israel, the LORD your God is one LORD,
and you are to love the LORD your God with all your heart and all your soul
[and all your mind] and with all your energy.'

And the scholar said to him, "That's a fine answer, Teacher. You have
correctly said that God is one and there is no other beside him. And 'to
love him with all one's heart and with all one's mind and with all one's
energy' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself' is greater than all the
burnt offerings and sacrifices put together."

And when Jesus saw that he answered him sensibly, he said to him, "You are
not far from God's domain."

Mark 12:28-34 Scholars Version

*[NOTE: "LORD" refernces the tetragrammaton YHWH in Deuteronomy 6:4 -5
meaning the ONE God of Israel and does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.]

#################################################

Acts 10:34ff.: "truly I perceive that God [YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN CHRIST
/ MESSIAH Jesus of Nazareth] shows no partiality, but in every nation any
one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."


> Certainly if there had been no Fall there would've been no need for
> salvation.

Jews don't believe in a mythical "Fall" .... therefore JESUS didn't believe
in the mythical "Fall". The "Fall" is a Christian man-made dogma added by
Gentiles.


> We do have a spirit available to us that can help us to be like God, the
> spirit of Jesus.

Jesus of Nazareth never stated that!




--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/

MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Barry OGrady
2009-08-03 13:44:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:01:06 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:

>"Barry OGrady"
>randy
>
>> Duke won't accept that God has a communications problem.
>
>A problem with communication is what both you and I have--not God.

God created us with a communication problem?

>Neither
>is He going to speak clearly to you when you play games. You wouldn't give a
>gun to a burglar to shoot you with. Neither will God give you an argument
>you intend only to pick holes in.

Neither does God give all believers the same information.

>> Why is there only one like Jesus? Did God exhaust himself when he
>> created Jesus, or could God solve all our problems by making us all
>> like Jesus?...
>
>God could've probably made an infinite number of Jesuses. He made only one
>for His own reasons. Apparently that's all He wanted and all we needed.

That makes God look incredibly evil.

>Human beings are finite and need a finite reference point. We do not need 50
>million road signs saying the same thing. In fact, we get less confused when
>there is only one sign indicating "dangerous curve" instead of five of the
>same.
>
>How many times do you need to be told to repent? How many prophets does it
>take to inform you what you should repent of? But we only needed one
>*perfect* and one *divine* messiah to tell us our sins and of the need to
>repent.
>
>All imperfect human beings can do some of the job, but do not do so free of
>all hypocrasy. Only one perfectly represented God's love, and we needed him
>for salvation, because only his spirit is the right testimony that leads to
>eternal life. All other human testimonials fall short of what is needed for
>eternal life. All sin much come to an end.
>
>> If we were all like Jesus God would be pleased with us and there would
>> no cause for anger and no need for salvation.
>
>Certainly if there had been no Fall there would've been no need for
>salvation. Now, even with salvation, we still have to die, and we still have
>to look to the mercy of one who has the power to raise us from the dead.

I'm glad you can see that God has done the wrong thing by all of us.
If God had made us all like Jesus he would be pleased with us and there
would no cause for anger and no need for salvation.

>> Is God responsible for how well our freewill is working for us?
>> How well are things working for us?
>
>Things have not gone very well.

Indeed, God has let us all down.

>We do have a spirit available to us that can
>help us to be like God, the spirit of Jesus.

The problem is we were made in God's image and we spend
most of our time trying to overcome that.

>And this spirit can give us confidence that a new day is coming when
>we will be raised from the dead, to get a 2nd chance.

Why should we give God a second chance? There is no indication that
God will improve himself.

>randy

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Sam Taylor
2009-07-18 08:54:41 UTC
Permalink
>> 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
>>
>> Our Father in heaven,[a]
Our Fathers which art in heaven
>> Hallowed be Your name.
Hallowed be Your names
>> Your kingdom come.[b]
Your Kingdoms come
>> Your will be done
Your Wiils be done
>> On earth as it is in heaven.
>> 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
>> 4 And forgive us our sins,
>> For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
>> And do not lead us into temptation,
>> But deliver us from the evil one." [c]

>
>
>So WHY do Christians do the OPPOSITE??????
>
>Our Jesus
>who art in our hearts (but ALSO seated at the right hand side of God ...
>though, dear Jesus, you ARE God ... or the son of God ... and God's Christ)
>Hello to your name - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus - Jesus
>Thy rapture and apocalyptic Armageddon come
>My fundamentalist will be done
>On earth as it is heavin'
>Give us this day our daily Jesus Jingle
>And forgive us our trespasses
>As we surely won't forgive anyone who is not a "true Christian"
>
>In Jesus name
In the Name of the most holy trinity
>
>Amen
Amen to Big Daddy, amen to J.C., amen to the Rightious Ghost
>
>
>--
>MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
>http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
>
>MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
>http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
>
>
dolf
2009-07-18 09:43:34 UTC
Permalink
What then do you make of the Chinese tetragramation {MALE, FEMALE, SON}
as the basis for number which was published around 2 BCE and therefore
render statues to Mary and child as secondary and obsolete?

Sam Taylor wrote:
>> In Jesus name
> In the Name of the most holy trinity
>> Amen
> Amen to Big Daddy, amen to J.C., amen to the Rightious Ghost
>>

"And after this law I made [Moses {Taken out; drawn forth} and the
Children of Israel {He who prevails with God; he who sees God}] know the
days of the Sabbath in the wilderness of Sin {Bush} which is between
Elim {The rams; the strong; stags} and Sinai {Bush; enmity}. And I also
related to you the Sabbaths of the land on Mount Sinai. And the years of
jubilee in the Sabbaths of years I related to you. But its year I have
not related to you ... on account of this I ordained for you the weeks
of years, and the years, and the jubilees as FORTY-NINE JUBILEES from
the days of Adam {Taken from 4 corners/ Earthy; red} until this day and
ONE WEEK AND TWO YEARS. [ie. 49J1W2D + 40 years = 49J7W where the
difference of 49.7 days occurs between the 365.2425 day topical year and
364 day religious calendars]

And there are still forty further years [as 5W5D given 6D = 2184 days as
the 2 x 1092 days of the 'oth-'wonders and signs' as being a 3 x 364 day
solar / 3 x 354 day lunar + 30 day intercalation cycle] to learn the
commands of the LORD until they cross over the shore of the land of
Canaan {Merchant; trader; or that humbles and subdues}, crossing over
the Jordan {The river of judgment: See also the Category of
Understanding #369 = #8, #300, #2, #4, #50, #5 as 'n. Thought of
Judgment'} to its western side."

"He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land
of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

This is that Moses, who said to the children of Israel, 'The Lord your
God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren. Him
shall you hear.' This is he who was in the congregation in the
wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our
fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, whom our
fathers would not obey, but rejected." [Acts 7:36-39 (NKJV]]

#1 = [the major premise {YANG/FATHER/HEAVEN/MALE/FORM - Formula of
Universal Law}, which contains the law of that will:

7 x 24 x 13 = 2184 days of the 'oth cycle = 6D or 6 x 364 associated to
the 'constant sequence of sun and moon' as 354 x 3 + 30 day
intercalation = 1092 days x 2 = 2184 days] +

#2 = [the minor premise {YIN/MOTHER/EARTH/FEMALE/MATTER - Formula of
Humanity - HEAD OF STATE}, which contains the command to behave in
accordance with the law, that is, the principle of subsumption under the
law:

x 49 = 6J or 294 x 364 days or 365.2425 x 293 years - Vernal Equinox
Wednesday 20 March 1996 / 21 March = 1 Nisan 5756; and] +

#3 = [the conclusion {ZHUN/SON/SEA/ENUMERATE/OFFSPRING - Formula of
Autonomy}, which contains the verdict (sentence), that is laid down as
right in the case at hand: ... 6,000 topical years as Telos ('achariyth
as 122J3W1D) = Arch (re'shiyth as 3W1D) + c² [9(9²+1)/2]:

has #369 with Septet #41 {ie. #81 - #27 - #9 - #3 - #1} centric on {ie.
20 March 1996 + (5*364) + 182 = 12 Sept 2001 as 1st day of 7th solar
month = #0 - Zero point} 13-17 September 2001 / 18 September = 1 Tishri
5762. ref: "On [Sunday 16 September as] the 1st day of the [21st
priestly] course of Jachin {he that strengthens and makes steadfast} on
the 29th day of lunar month, on the 5th day of the 7th solar month."
[4Q321]] +

#4 = 'OTH Chronological Elements = #10 as {Totality of Nature = Formula
of Progression of individual phenomena: #1 = {0: 1} + #2 = {0: -1, 1: 1}
+ #3 = {0: 0, 1: 1} + #4 = {0: 1, 1: 1} = #10 = {0: 1, 1: 0, 2: 1}}

vCube Balanced Ternary System distribution: #1 = {0: 1}; #41 = {0: -1,
1: -1, 2: -1, 3: -1, 4: 1}; #81 = (0: 0, 1: 0, 2:0, 3:0, 4:1}

ONE: 1, 2, 3
TWO: 0, 3, 6
THREE: 0, 9, 18
FOUR: 0, 27, 54 = Chinese Tetragrammation (Yang, Yin, Zhun) of Number
(Imperial Governance of male - dragon, female (consort) - phoenix: 206
BCE to 220 CE published 2 BCE); cf: [Deuteronomy 4:1-20]
FIVE: 0, 81, 369 = 9(9²+1)/2 - Organisation of the Myriad of things
SIX: 0, 243, 729 = Appraisals within vCube (9 x 9 x 9)
SEVEN: 0, 729, 2187 = 17 March (Saint Patrick's Day and ipso facto 25
March) + 2 x 'OTH CYCLE of 1092 (6 x 364 = 6D) days as Genesis and
substantiation of Christian identity.

"And jubilees will pass until Israel is purified from all the sin of
fornication, and defilement and uncleanness, and sin and error. And they
will dwell in confidence in all the land. And then it will not have any
Satan or any evil (one). And the land will be purified from that time
and forever." [Jubilees 50:1-5]
unknown
2009-07-19 17:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Abby wrote:

moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks
이슬람의 성기를 빨아 당나귀 -
الإسلام يأخذ الحمار القضيب في الشرج


Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!


***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
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***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \



Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!

***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \

Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!

***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **





moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \

Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!

***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **







moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \

Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!


***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **









moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \

Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!


***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **










moslem cartoon character mohammad and his bumchum allaah were child
molesting goat fuckers and nikomaks


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ')
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \

Up your ass mohammad - Elif air ab tizak!!!


***@gmail.com
***@wn.apc.org
***@gmail.com
***@muslimmatch.com or ***@muslimmatch.com or
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com
***@googlegroups.com
***@gmail.com


Wassim Noujeim = Faris Jawad

** Posted from LINKdotNET -Jordan **
http://www.link.net
Cybertrust Australia Pty Ltd
Fastlink, Jordan
theo
2009-08-01 06:38:18 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 1, 11:07 am, Terry Cross <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 31, 5:05 am, Barry OGrady <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 06:17:45 -0700, "randy" <***@wavecable.com> wrote:
> > >"Barry OGrady"
> > >randy
>
> > >> Can the potter judge the state of his pots without judging his own
> > >> ability?
>
> > >Yes, particularly when he gave those pots freewill to either obey Him or
> > >disobey Him.
>
> > Wouldn't that mean he would be judging himself on how well he implemented
> > that free will?
>
> Strictly speaking and staying within the analog, absolutely not.  A
> potter creates a bevy of pots and sets them aside to dry.  When they
> are dry and before painting them, he inspects them for flaws.  He is
> judging the pots, not judging himself.
>
> After the potter paints and dries them, he inspects them again.  Some
> are rejected, but he is still not judging himself.
>
> After the pots are fired, the potter inspects the pots yet again.  And
> he is still judging just the pots, not the kiln or himself.

And if every pot is defective and has 'faults' then it is surely time
for the potter to take the blamee for his or her work.

In the God analogy, all pots are made perfect by a perfect potter, but
for some reason all the pots are defective (in sin). Of course this is
the fault of the pots.

Theo
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