Discussion:
A Christian talks on Paganism
(too old to reply)
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-28 06:19:58 UTC
Permalink
A Christian speaks on the faith and path of Wicca
_________________________________________________________________

by James Clement Taylor

I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been
baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has
made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or
her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these
things are true of me. I am a Greek Orthodox Christian, a member of
St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I
am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own
responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are
supposed to do.

A Situation of Strife and Shame:

There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
a Pagan, proclaimed:

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)

If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
refusal to judge others:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)

"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)

"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)

Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
of Micah the Prophet, centuries earlier, who wrote:

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)

Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.

Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
church. Rather, it is faith in God, and in His mercy:

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
should. In the Bible we find the following:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)

The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!

For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must
prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle
John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend
any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to
see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1).

You will find that, while you may perceive the power manifested there
as less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is
clearly the power of God.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been
terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places
of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan,
which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us
accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I
say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My
brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)

Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare
that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or
condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our
sins.

Light & Life,
James Clement Taylor
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GentleOwlSpirit
2004-02-28 07:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
A Christian speaks on the faith and path of Wicca
_________________________________________________________________
by James Clement Taylor
I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been
baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has
made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or
her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these
things are true of me. I am a Greek Orthodox Christian, a member of
St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I
am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own
responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are
supposed to do.
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
======================
Bren, you should always read the verses prior to and after the ones you
are quoting. NEVER take Scripture out of context. If you will read the
Scriptures below you will see Paul was tell them they were worhipping
ignorantly (wrong)! Then he tells them where to find GOD.

Acts
17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would
know therefore what these things mean.
17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their
time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar
with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly
worship, him declare I unto you.
17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is
Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any
thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all
the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed,
and the bounds of their habitation;
17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after
him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
==========================
Post by Brenda G. Kent
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must
Post by Brenda G. Kent
prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle
John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend
any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to
see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1).
==================
1 John
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they
are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
I don't know how this author can state a certain power is "clearly the
power of God", if he is NOT in attendance!
==================
Post by Brenda G. Kent
You will find that, while you may perceive the power manifested there
as less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is
clearly the power of God.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been
terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places
of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan,
which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us
accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I
say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My
brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)
Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare
that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or
condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our
sins.
Light & Life,
James Clement Taylor
There are so many other points I could have gone into, but I feel to
continue, would only take away from the Lord.
Peace, Sioux
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-28 17:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
Post by Brenda G. Kent
A Christian speaks on the faith and path of Wicca
_________________________________________________________________
by James Clement Taylor
I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been
baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has
made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or
her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these
things are true of me. I am a Greek Orthodox Christian, a member of
St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I
am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own
responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are
supposed to do.
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
======================
Bren, you should always read the verses prior to and after the ones you
are quoting. NEVER take Scripture out of context. If you will read the
Scriptures below you will see Paul was tell them they were worhipping
ignorantly (wrong)! Then he tells them where to find GOD.
**This was written by a man..it is his take.
I personally don't see the below meaning that ignorantly means wrong..but
that ignorantly means because someone told them too...not because they
understood it. It was an call to understand what you believe in. Some call
it the the great mystery or Wakan tanka as you would understand it.
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
Acts
17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would
know therefore what these things mean.
17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their
time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar
with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly
worship, him declare I unto you.
17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is
Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any
thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all
the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed,
and the bounds of their habitation;
17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after
==========================
Post by Brenda G. Kent
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must
Post by Brenda G. Kent
prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle
John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend
any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to
see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1).
==================
1 John
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they
are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
I don't know how this author can state a certain power is "clearly the
power of God", if he is NOT in attendance!
==================
****Yes says the same thing to me.
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
Post by Brenda G. Kent
You will find that, while you may perceive the power manifested there
as less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is
clearly the power of God.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been
terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places
of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan,
which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us
accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I
say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My
brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)
Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare
that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or
condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our
sins.
Light & Life,
James Clement Taylor
There are so many other points I could have gone into, but I feel to
continue, would only take away from the Lord.
Peace, Sioux
Blessings of God to you Sioux. I do read the full verses and I don't take
them out of context. There are many who do however...taking the edicts
against witches out of the context in when and why they were written. It
all comes down to each of our interpretations. I like this man James
Clement Taylor because instead of following rhetoric he decided to use his
own Mind and let God guide him to truth instead of following the words of
someone else. He listened to God....and not the prejudices of a few.

Bren.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Horyn
2004-02-28 10:18:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
If this were the whole story, if this was the only passage of Scripture that
taught of going to heaven, your point would have merit. However, the
Centurion was not accepted by anything other than his faith. His "paganism"
as you call it, was not mentioned or recognized by Jesus. Rather, the
Centurion's "faith" was acknowledged. Faith -- real faith in God -- is the
cornerstone of salvation. "... the just shall live by his faith." (Hab 2:4;
cp. Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11 - 12).

Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather seek
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is based
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The Christian
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans do a
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.

Why would you seek wisdom elsewhere? The Holy Scriptures contain all that
you need for instruction in righteousness:

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti
3:15-17)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
The Bible says,

"And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti
3:15-17)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
Sharing our faith or, proclaiming the gospel, is done because Jesus directed
His disciples to "teach all nations" (Mt 28:18 - 20)

Real faith results in a changed life. A life that obediently submits to
God. Why did Jesus institute His church if it wasn't important for His
people to attend? Why have the Scriptures been preserved if it isn't for
our learning? And, why did God gift His churches with teachers if no one
needed learning? Faith, Brenda, is the beginning of the Christian's walk
with God. Real faith submits obediently to God in all that He commands.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
When Paul began speaking to the people at Mars Hill, no one there knew the
real God. For, as the passage unfolds we learn that some of those present
"mocked" Paul's message (v. 32). And, we learn that others who were
present, "believed" (v. 34). So, the best you can say with accuracy from
the verses you cite, is that some Wiccans may -- when the gospel is
proclaimed to them -- repent and believe. But, no worshipper of the
"unknown" is a worshipper of the true and living God. For the real God is
known. He is known by the Holy Scriptures and He is known in the person of
Jesus Christ.

What a foolish thing to say that real faith can be in an "unknown" diety.
Why then does John write the following? "And many other signs truly did
Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Joh
20:30-31)

It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.

"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)

"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon,
and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of
the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." (Jg 10:6)

I certainly hope that while you serve "unknown" gods, your not serving any
of these (above)

"And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou
shalt have no other gods before me." (Ex 20:1-3)

Mike
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-28 17:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
If this were the whole story, if this was the only passage of Scripture that
taught of going to heaven, your point would have merit. However, the
Centurion was not accepted by anything other than his faith. His "paganism"
as you call it, was not mentioned or recognized by Jesus. Rather, the
Centurion's "faith" was acknowledged. Faith -- real faith in God -- is the
cornerstone of salvation. "... the just shall live by his faith." (Hab 2:4;
cp. Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11 - 12).
***Where you there Mike?
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather seek
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is based
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek to
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The Christian
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans do a
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Post by Mike Horyn
Why would you seek wisdom elsewhere? The Holy Scriptures contain all that
***The Bible contains some. However I don't limit myself to Gods elbow but
embrace the whole God.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti
3:15-17)
****and because it is in the book..then you must believe it?
Please prove that it is God speaking to you...if you cannot..then it is
only your opinion Mike.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
The Bible says,
"And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti
3:15-17)
****so what you have is your interp...and James's. You can have dueling
Bibles all day and will you have the humility to accept that he may be
right?
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
Sharing our faith or, proclaiming the gospel, is done because Jesus directed
His disciples to "teach all nations" (Mt 28:18 - 20)
*****but they were the disciples....are you?
I want to ask you a question: you have your faith..you are strong in it.
Someone comes along with an old text supposedly containing words of
God..and tries his darnedest to get you to go his way...to follow what he
says...to drop your faith and pick up his. He everyone in awhile tells you
that you are in error and headed for Hell. Tell me how this affects you?
He responds to everything you do or say...with what he believes is the
truth....he continues to tell you that you are listening to satan and that
you will perish. Tell me....how does this make you feel? If you feel
irritated or assaulted....why do you not think that your doing it would
not have the same effect on someone else? treat others as you would have
them treat you.
Post by Mike Horyn
Real faith results in a changed life. A life that obediently submits to
God. Why did Jesus institute His church if it wasn't important for His
people to attend? Why have the Scriptures been preserved if it isn't for
our learning? And, why did God gift His churches with teachers if no one
needed learning? Faith, Brenda, is the beginning of the Christian's walk
with God. Real faith submits obediently to God in all that He commands.
*****and yet the Bible talks about how the church is not built of men's
hands. Why are you not in the open air? Why were the scriptures preserved?
why was the Book of the Dead preserved? why was the Koran preserved?
because these books are important to people. I have real faith Mike...and
I do submit obediently to God in all that it commands.
I don't follow other humans..but God.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
When Paul began speaking to the people at Mars Hill, no one there knew the
real God. For, as the passage unfolds we learn that some of those present
"mocked" Paul's message (v. 32). And, we learn that others who were
present, "believed" (v. 34). So, the best you can say with accuracy from
the verses you cite, is that some Wiccans may -- when the gospel is
proclaimed to them -- repent and believe. But, no worshipper of the
"unknown" is a worshipper of the true and living God. For the real God is
known. He is known by the Holy Scriptures and He is known in the person of
Jesus Christ.
****People believe that God is the father of Jesus. People believe that
Jesus was enlightened to his God within...his Christ within...which is to
say that the Unknown God is present within Jesus. Jesus allowed it to come
through unimpeded....and as this happenned became the God...as will happen
to all of us eventually.
Post by Mike Horyn
What a foolish thing to say that real faith can be in an "unknown" diety.
Why then does John write the following? "And many other signs truly did
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Joh
20:30-31)
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods Mike..because
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon,
and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of
the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." (Jg 10:6)
***and the writers of the Bible did not understand that all Gods are but
facets of ONE GOD.
Post by Mike Horyn
I certainly hope that while you serve "unknown" gods, your not serving any
of these (above)
****all Gods are ONE God. How many times will you just not hear what I
have said...and brush over it to say the same thing over and over?? I'm
trying to listen to your words...I'd like to ask you to do the same.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou
shalt have no other gods before me." (Ex 20:1-3)
****Yes? what of it? Do not make money your God...pride your God...do not
make books your God.....but see the God within all.
Post by Mike Horyn
Mike the Baptist
Bren the Christian and Wiccan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GentleOwlSpirit
2004-02-28 19:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
If this were the whole story, if this was the only passage of Scripture that
taught of going to heaven, your point would have merit. However, the
Centurion was not accepted by anything other than his faith. His "paganism"
as you call it, was not mentioned or recognized by Jesus. Rather, the
Centurion's "faith" was acknowledged. Faith -- real faith in God -- is the
cornerstone of salvation. "... the just shall live by his faith." (Hab 2:4;
cp. Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11 - 12).
***Where you there Mike?
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather seek
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is based
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek to
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The Christian
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans do a
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Post by Mike Horyn
Why would you seek wisdom elsewhere? The Holy Scriptures contain all that
***The Bible contains some. However I don't limit myself to Gods elbow but
embrace the whole God.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti
3:15-17)
****and because it is in the book..then you must believe it?
Please prove that it is God speaking to you...if you cannot..then it is
only your opinion Mike.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
The Bible says,
"And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti
3:15-17)
****so what you have is your interp...and James's. You can have dueling
Bibles all day and will you have the humility to accept that he may be
right?
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
Sharing our faith or, proclaiming the gospel, is done because Jesus directed
His disciples to "teach all nations" (Mt 28:18 - 20)
*****but they were the disciples....are you?
I want to ask you a question: you have your faith..you are strong in it.
Someone comes along with an old text supposedly containing words of
God..and tries his darnedest to get you to go his way...to follow what he
says...to drop your faith and pick up his. He everyone in awhile tells you
that you are in error and headed for Hell. Tell me how this affects you?
He responds to everything you do or say...with what he believes is the
truth....he continues to tell you that you are listening to satan and that
you will perish. Tell me....how does this make you feel? If you feel
irritated or assaulted....why do you not think that your doing it would
not have the same effect on someone else? treat others as you would have
them treat you.
Post by Mike Horyn
Real faith results in a changed life. A life that obediently submits to
God. Why did Jesus institute His church if it wasn't important for His
people to attend? Why have the Scriptures been preserved if it isn't for
our learning? And, why did God gift His churches with teachers if no one
needed learning? Faith, Brenda, is the beginning of the Christian's walk
with God. Real faith submits obediently to God in all that He commands.
*****and yet the Bible talks about how the church is not built of men's
hands. Why are you not in the open air? Why were the scriptures preserved?
why was the Book of the Dead preserved? why was the Koran preserved?
because these books are important to people. I have real faith Mike...and
I do submit obediently to God in all that it commands.
I don't follow other humans..but God.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
When Paul began speaking to the people at Mars Hill, no one there knew the
real God. For, as the passage unfolds we learn that some of those present
"mocked" Paul's message (v. 32). And, we learn that others who were
present, "believed" (v. 34). So, the best you can say with accuracy from
the verses you cite, is that some Wiccans may -- when the gospel is
proclaimed to them -- repent and believe. But, no worshipper of the
"unknown" is a worshipper of the true and living God. For the real God is
known. He is known by the Holy Scriptures and He is known in the person of
Jesus Christ.
****People believe that God is the father of Jesus. People believe that
Jesus was enlightened to his God within...his Christ within...which is to
say that the Unknown God is present within Jesus. Jesus allowed it to come
through unimpeded....and as this happenned became the God...as will happen
to all of us eventually.
Post by Mike Horyn
What a foolish thing to say that real faith can be in an "unknown" diety.
Why then does John write the following? "And many other signs truly did
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Joh
20:30-31)
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods Mike..because
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon,
and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of
the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." (Jg 10:6)
***and the writers of the Bible did not understand that all Gods are but
facets of ONE GOD.
Post by Mike Horyn
I certainly hope that while you serve "unknown" gods, your not serving any
of these (above)
****all Gods are ONE God. How many times will you just not hear what I
have said...and brush over it to say the same thing over and over?? I'm
trying to listen to your words...I'd like to ask you to do the same.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou
shalt have no other gods before me." (Ex 20:1-3)
****Yes? what of it? Do not make money your God...pride your God...do not
make books your God.....but see the God within all.
===================
Mike, Bren is one of those we have been told about in;
ICorinhtians
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise
in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are
vain.

The Scriptures are filled with warnings about being deceived and false
witnesses. I am finished with Bren as she defends all her false
beliefs, even when it has been shown to her it is wrong. She believes
EVERY Christian interprets God's Word differently. Bren, if you're
reading this, we may reading a verse here or there differently, but I
believe Mike and I would agree on the plan of Salvation as set forth in
the Bible.
==============
Peace, Sioux
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Mike the Baptist
Bren the Christian and Wiccan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-29 00:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
If this were the whole story, if this was the only passage of Scripture that
taught of going to heaven, your point would have merit. However, the
Centurion was not accepted by anything other than his faith. His "paganism"
as you call it, was not mentioned or recognized by Jesus. Rather, the
Centurion's "faith" was acknowledged. Faith -- real faith in God -- is the
cornerstone of salvation. "... the just shall live by his faith." (Hab 2:4;
cp. Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11 - 12).
***Where you there Mike?
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather seek
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is based
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek to
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The Christian
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans do a
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Post by Mike Horyn
Why would you seek wisdom elsewhere? The Holy Scriptures contain all that
***The Bible contains some. However I don't limit myself to Gods elbow but
embrace the whole God.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti
3:15-17)
****and because it is in the book..then you must believe it?
Please prove that it is God speaking to you...if you cannot..then it is
only your opinion Mike.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
The Bible says,
"And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti
3:15-17)
****so what you have is your interp...and James's. You can have dueling
Bibles all day and will you have the humility to accept that he may be
right?
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
Sharing our faith or, proclaiming the gospel, is done because Jesus directed
His disciples to "teach all nations" (Mt 28:18 - 20)
*****but they were the disciples....are you?
I want to ask you a question: you have your faith..you are strong in it.
Someone comes along with an old text supposedly containing words of
God..and tries his darnedest to get you to go his way...to follow what he
says...to drop your faith and pick up his. He everyone in awhile tells you
that you are in error and headed for Hell. Tell me how this affects you?
He responds to everything you do or say...with what he believes is the
truth....he continues to tell you that you are listening to satan and that
you will perish. Tell me....how does this make you feel? If you feel
irritated or assaulted....why do you not think that your doing it would
not have the same effect on someone else? treat others as you would have
them treat you.
Post by Mike Horyn
Real faith results in a changed life. A life that obediently submits to
God. Why did Jesus institute His church if it wasn't important for His
people to attend? Why have the Scriptures been preserved if it isn't for
our learning? And, why did God gift His churches with teachers if no one
needed learning? Faith, Brenda, is the beginning of the Christian's walk
with God. Real faith submits obediently to God in all that He commands.
*****and yet the Bible talks about how the church is not built of men's
hands. Why are you not in the open air? Why were the scriptures preserved?
why was the Book of the Dead preserved? why was the Koran preserved?
because these books are important to people. I have real faith Mike...and
I do submit obediently to God in all that it commands.
I don't follow other humans..but God.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
When Paul began speaking to the people at Mars Hill, no one there knew the
real God. For, as the passage unfolds we learn that some of those present
"mocked" Paul's message (v. 32). And, we learn that others who were
present, "believed" (v. 34). So, the best you can say with accuracy from
the verses you cite, is that some Wiccans may -- when the gospel is
proclaimed to them -- repent and believe. But, no worshipper of the
"unknown" is a worshipper of the true and living God. For the real God is
known. He is known by the Holy Scriptures and He is known in the person of
Jesus Christ.
****People believe that God is the father of Jesus. People believe that
Jesus was enlightened to his God within...his Christ within...which is to
say that the Unknown God is present within Jesus. Jesus allowed it to come
through unimpeded....and as this happenned became the God...as will happen
to all of us eventually.
Post by Mike Horyn
What a foolish thing to say that real faith can be in an "unknown" diety.
Why then does John write the following? "And many other signs truly did
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Joh
20:30-31)
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods Mike..because
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon,
and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of
the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." (Jg 10:6)
***and the writers of the Bible did not understand that all Gods are but
facets of ONE GOD.
Post by Mike Horyn
I certainly hope that while you serve "unknown" gods, your not serving any
of these (above)
****all Gods are ONE God. How many times will you just not hear what I
have said...and brush over it to say the same thing over and over?? I'm
trying to listen to your words...I'd like to ask you to do the same.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou
shalt have no other gods before me." (Ex 20:1-3)
****Yes? what of it? Do not make money your God...pride your God...do not
make books your God.....but see the God within all.
===================
Mike, Bren is one of those we have been told about in;
ICorinhtians
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise
in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are
vain.
***and Sioux do you actually understand what this means?
It in now way is talking against someone like myself.
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
The Scriptures are filled with warnings about being deceived and false
witnesses. I am finished with Bren as she defends all her false
beliefs, even when it has been shown to her it is wrong. She believes
****my beliefs are just that..my beliefs. And your beliefs are just that
YOUR beliefs. You have no knowledge of them being wrong..as I have no
proof of yours being wrong. Nothing has been shown to me that what God
tells me is right...is wrong.
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
EVERY Christian interprets God's Word differently. Bren, if you're
reading this, we may reading a verse here or there differently, but I
believe Mike and I would agree on the plan of Salvation as set forth in
the Bible.
****so be it.
I never stand in your way to live your life the way you see fit Sioux.
Post by GentleOwlSpirit
==============
Peace, Sioux
Peace, Bren


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Horyn
2004-02-29 02:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a
Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent
person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many
people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus
Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion,
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not
even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and
west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of
heaven. But the sons of the king- dom will be cast out into outer
darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew
8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is
clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell
will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus
Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of
heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a
If this were the whole story, if this was the only passage of Scripture that
taught of going to heaven, your point would have merit. However, the
Centurion was not accepted by anything other than his faith. His "paganism"
as you call it, was not mentioned or recognized by Jesus. Rather, the
Centurion's "faith" was acknowledged. Faith -- real faith in God -- is the
cornerstone of salvation. "... the just shall live by his faith." (Hab 2:4;
cp. Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11 - 12).
***Where you there Mike?
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on the
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded upon what
has been recorded.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather seek
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is based
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek to
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The Christian
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans do a
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of God.
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of Him,
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and new
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired and,
without error i.e., inerrant.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Why would you seek wisdom elsewhere? The Holy Scriptures contain all that
***The Bible contains some. However I don't limit myself to Gods elbow but
embrace the whole God.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti
3:15-17)
****and because it is in the book..then you must believe it?
Please prove that it is God speaking to you...if you cannot..then it is
only your opinion Mike.
It is the opinion of evangelical Christianity, Brenda. It is you who have
somewhat to prove. Since you are rejecting the Bible as God's inspired
Word, then what do you offer in it's place? Your "inner Christ"? Is that
the same spirit who tells you to ignore the the Scriptures? Do you consult
with your "inner Christ" before or after mealtime?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew
6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the
same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew
7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not
sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge
not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be
condemned. Forgive, and you will be for- given." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling
himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things,
will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says
to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who
does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
In addition to these words from the Gospel, let us look at the words
He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:6-8)
Where, in any of this, does it say what doctrines one is to believe,
or whose teachings concerning reality one must accept? All these
things speak on how one ACTS, how one lives one's life, the kind of
person one's actions gradually bring into being.
The Bible says,
"And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti
3:15-17)
****so what you have is your interp...and James's. You can have dueling
Bibles all day and will you have the humility to accept that he may be
right?
James? Who is James?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either.
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right
Sharing our faith or, proclaiming the gospel, is done because Jesus directed
His disciples to "teach all nations" (Mt 28:18 - 20)
*****but they were the disciples....are you?
I want to ask you a question: you have your faith..you are strong in it.
Someone comes along with an old text supposedly containing words of
God..and tries his darnedest to get you to go his way...to follow what he
says...to drop your faith and pick up his. He everyone in awhile tells you
that you are in error and headed for Hell. Tell me how this affects you?
He responds to everything you do or say...with what he believes is the
truth....he continues to tell you that you are listening to satan and that
you will perish. Tell me....how does this make you feel? If you feel
irritated or assaulted....why do you not think that your doing it would
not have the same effect on someone else? treat others as you would have
them treat you.
Brenda, perhaps there is a Wiccan newsgroup that make you feel more
comfortable. But, this newsgroup has as it's moniker, "christianlife."
But, how would you feel, if I entered your Wiccan newsgroup and began
posting Bible verses there?

But, we're not in the Wiccan newsgroup, Brenda. This is a "Christian"
newsgroup. If you feel annoyed, then post your heresies somewhere more
fitting.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Real faith results in a changed life. A life that obediently submits to
God. Why did Jesus institute His church if it wasn't important for His
people to attend? Why have the Scriptures been preserved if it isn't for
our learning? And, why did God gift His churches with teachers if no one
needed learning? Faith, Brenda, is the beginning of the Christian's walk
with God. Real faith submits obediently to God in all that He commands.
*****and yet the Bible talks about how the church is not built of men's
hands. Why are you not in the open air? Why were the scriptures preserved?
why was the Book of the Dead preserved? why was the Koran preserved?
because these books are important to people. I have real faith Mike...and
I do submit obediently to God in all that it commands.
I don't follow other humans..but God.
In all that "it" commands. Signs of real submission there, Bren.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
When Paul began speaking to the people at Mars Hill, no one there knew the
real God. For, as the passage unfolds we learn that some of those present
"mocked" Paul's message (v. 32). And, we learn that others who were
present, "believed" (v. 34). So, the best you can say with accuracy from
the verses you cite, is that some Wiccans may -- when the gospel is
proclaimed to them -- repent and believe. But, no worshipper of the
"unknown" is a worshipper of the true and living God. For the real God is
known. He is known by the Holy Scriptures and He is known in the person of
Jesus Christ.
****People believe that God is the father of Jesus. People believe that
Jesus was enlightened to his God within...his Christ within...which is to
say that the Unknown God is present within Jesus. Jesus allowed it to come
through unimpeded....and as this happenned became the God...as will happen
to all of us eventually.
(Toke, toke, pssst toke!) I'll bet you're high right now! Come on, admit
it, Brenda. Your stoned, aren't you?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
What a foolish thing to say that real faith can be in an "unknown" diety.
Why then does John write the following? "And many other signs truly did
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Joh
20:30-31)
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods Mike..because
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Me neither. However, notice that serving the wrong gods was (and still is)
sin.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon,
and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of
the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." (Jg 10:6)
***and the writers of the Bible did not understand that all Gods are but
facets of ONE GOD.
It is you who are without understanding, Brenda.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
I certainly hope that while you serve "unknown" gods, your not serving any
of these (above)
****all Gods are ONE God. How many times will you just not hear what I
have said...and brush over it to say the same thing over and over?? I'm
trying to listen to your words...I'd like to ask you to do the same.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
shalt have no other gods before me." (Ex 20:1-3)
****Yes? what of it? Do not make money your God...pride your God...do not
make books your God.....but see the God within all.
Post by Mike Horyn
Mike the Baptist
Bren the Christian and Wiccan.
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-29 03:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Horyn
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on the
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded upon what
has been recorded.
***YOUR beliefs are founded upon what has been recorded. Please don't
speak for all Christians. I was'nt there...which is why I don't make
statements of "fact" until I can prove.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is
based
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek to
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The
Christian
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans
do a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of God.
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of Him,
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and new
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired and,
without error i.e., inerrant.
****Hmmm..well I read those passages and don't see anything that refers to
what you have just wrote.

Matt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, the he which
made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall
cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?


Authorized King James version


I do believe that you have your passages mixed up.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Why would you seek wisdom elsewhere? The Holy Scriptures contain all
that
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***The Bible contains some. However I don't limit myself to Gods elbow but
embrace the whole God.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are
able
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the
man
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti
3:15-17)
****and because it is in the book..then you must believe it?
Please prove that it is God speaking to you...if you cannot..then it is
only your opinion Mike.
It is the opinion of evangelical Christianity, Brenda. It is you who have
****and I am not an evangelical...but a Christian.
Post by Mike Horyn
somewhat to prove. Since you are rejecting the Bible as God's inspired
Word, then what do you offer in it's place? Your "inner Christ"? Is that
the same spirit who tells you to ignore the the Scriptures? Do you consult
with your "inner Christ" before or after mealtime?
****I don't reject that Bible. I just don't see it as you do. Inner Christ
is there for all people..one has only to open to it.
It does not bother me if people only consult the Bible...but they had
better not speak for all Christians...as we vary.


**snip a lot of stuff.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****so what you have is your interp...and James's. You can have dueling
Bibles all day and will you have the humility to accept that he may be
right?
James? Who is James?
** the person who wrote that long piece that I posted.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven,
because
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace,
which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith,
in
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved,
either.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works,
nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the
right
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Sharing our faith or, proclaiming the gospel, is done because Jesus
directed
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
His disciples to "teach all nations" (Mt 28:18 - 20)
*****but they were the disciples....are you?
I want to ask you a question: you have your faith..you are strong in it.
Someone comes along with an old text supposedly containing words of
God..and tries his darnedest to get you to go his way...to follow what he
says...to drop your faith and pick up his. He everyone in awhile tells you
that you are in error and headed for Hell. Tell me how this affects you?
He responds to everything you do or say...with what he believes is the
truth....he continues to tell you that you are listening to satan and that
you will perish. Tell me....how does this make you feel? If you feel
irritated or assaulted....why do you not think that your doing it would
not have the same effect on someone else? treat others as you would have
them treat you.
Brenda, perhaps there is a Wiccan newsgroup that make you feel more
comfortable. But, this newsgroup has as it's moniker, "christianlife."
****I go to both Mike. I am both Wiccan and Christian..so I go to both.
I find loving folks on both newsgroups...and then some not so loving.
Post by Mike Horyn
But, how would you feel, if I entered your Wiccan newsgroup and began
posting Bible verses there?
****I don't post Wiccan "verses" here..so what is your point?
Post by Mike Horyn
But, we're not in the Wiccan newsgroup, Brenda. This is a "Christian"
newsgroup. If you feel annoyed, then post your heresies somewhere more
fitting.
***I am posting as a Christian. I don't speak for other Wiccans when I
post here.
If you don't wish to be annoyed by other Christians..perhaps you should
post to bible newsgroups. I don't go to them.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Real faith results in a changed life. A life that obediently submits to
God. Why did Jesus institute His church if it wasn't important for His
people to attend? Why have the Scriptures been preserved if it isn't
for
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
our learning? And, why did God gift His churches with teachers if no
one
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
needed learning? Faith, Brenda, is the beginning of the Christian's
walk
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
with God. Real faith submits obediently to God in all that He commands.
*****and yet the Bible talks about how the church is not built of men's
hands. Why are you not in the open air? Why were the scriptures preserved?
why was the Book of the Dead preserved? why was the Koran preserved?
because these books are important to people. I have real faith Mike...and
I do submit obediently to God in all that it commands.
I don't follow other humans..but God.
In all that "it" commands. Signs of real submission there, Bren.
****it is not an insult. It never was. God does not need genitals.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of
God
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by
their
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them "Satan
worshippers" are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even
believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a
God
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown
Deity.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of
Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for
as I was passing through and con- sidering the objects of your
worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE
UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing,
Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the
form
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
When Paul began speaking to the people at Mars Hill, no one there knew
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
real God. For, as the passage unfolds we learn that some of those
present
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
"mocked" Paul's message (v. 32). And, we learn that others who were
present, "believed" (v. 34). So, the best you can say with accuracy
from
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
the verses you cite, is that some Wiccans may -- when the gospel is
proclaimed to them -- repent and believe. But, no worshipper of the
"unknown" is a worshipper of the true and living God. For the real God
is
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
known. He is known by the Holy Scriptures and He is known in the person
of
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Jesus Christ.
****People believe that God is the father of Jesus. People believe that
Jesus was enlightened to his God within...his Christ within...which is to
say that the Unknown God is present within Jesus. Jesus allowed it to come
through unimpeded....and as this happenned became the God...as will happen
to all of us eventually.
(Toke, toke, pssst toke!) I'll bet you're high right now! Come on, admit
it, Brenda. Your stoned, aren't you?
*****No. Why would you assume such a thing? Since you don't understand
...you seek to make sport of something?
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
What a foolish thing to say that real faith can be in an "unknown"
diety.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Why then does John write the following? "And many other signs truly did
Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ,
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
(Joh
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
20:30-31)
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods Mike..because
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and
served
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Me neither. However, notice that serving the wrong gods was (and still is)
sin.
*****There is no other God Mike..so how can someone serve another?
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of
Zidon,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the
gods of
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." (Jg 10:6)
***and the writers of the Bible did not understand that all Gods are but
facets of ONE GOD.
It is you who are without understanding, Brenda.
**Proof please. Because I don't interp as you do..you think I must be the
one that is incorrect? Amazing lack of humility there Mike. This is my
interp..you don't have to follow it...and I don't have to follow your
interp.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
I certainly hope that while you serve "unknown" gods, your not serving
any
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of these (above)
****all Gods are ONE God. How many times will you just not hear what I
have said...and brush over it to say the same thing over and over?? I'm
trying to listen to your words...I'd like to ask you to do the same.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which
have
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
shalt have no other gods before me." (Ex 20:1-3)
****Yes? what of it? Do not make money your God...pride your God...do not
make books your God.....but see the God within all.
Post by Mike Horyn
Mike the Baptist
Bren the Christian and Wiccan.
Ps. still not understanding why Mike thinks his interp is the only one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Horyn
2004-02-29 11:28:23 UTC
Permalink
(Lot's of snipping to save space and time)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on the
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded upon what
has been recorded.
***YOUR beliefs are founded upon what has been recorded. Please don't
speak for all Christians. I was'nt there...which is why I don't make
statements of "fact" until I can prove.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in God.
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but rather
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it is
based
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek to
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The
Christian
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we humans
do a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the truths
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of God.
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of Him,
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and new
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired and,
without error i.e., inerrant.
****Hmmm..well I read those passages and don't see anything that refers to
what you have just wrote.
Matt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, the he which
made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall
cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?
Authorized King James version
I do believe that you have your passages mixed up.
Thanks for posting the above verses. No, those are the passages I referred
to. In the first passage, please notice that Jesus is referring to the
fifth Commandment. Please notice that Jesus refers to it as, "the
Commandment of God" and NOT the writings of men. In the second passage, the
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that the Son
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where? the
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here again, Jesus
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.

Did you know that the New Testament refers to the Old Testament more
than1,600 times?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****and I am not an evangelical...but a Christian.
**snip a lot of stuff.
Post by Mike Horyn
Brenda, perhaps there is a Wiccan newsgroup that make you feel more
comfortable. But, this newsgroup has as it's moniker, "christianlife."
****I go to both Mike. I am both Wiccan and Christian..so I go to both.
I find loving folks on both newsgroups...and then some not so loving.
Post by Mike Horyn
But, how would you feel, if I entered your Wiccan newsgroup and began
posting Bible verses there?
****I don't post Wiccan "verses" here..so what is your point?
But, you do post a lot of anti - christian things and Wiccan theologies
(Taylor).
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
But, we're not in the Wiccan newsgroup, Brenda. This is a "Christian"
newsgroup. If you feel annoyed, then post your heresies somewhere more
fitting.
***I am posting as a Christian. I don't speak for other Wiccans when I
post here.
If you don't wish to be annoyed by other Christians..perhaps you should
post to bible newsgroups. I don't go to them.
One who claims to be led of Christ cannot also be a Wiccan. "No servant can
serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or
else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Lu 16:13).
Friendship with the world is enmity with God (James 4:4)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
In all that "it" commands. Signs of real submission there, Bren.
****it is not an insult. It never was. God does not need genitals.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods
Mike..because
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and
served
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Me neither. However, notice that serving the wrong gods was (and still is)
sin.
*****There is no other God Mike..so how can someone serve another?
If you truly believed this Brenda, you would forsake Wiccan as serve the
True God as He has Commanded. According to His Word.

Mike
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-29 18:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Horyn
(Lot's of snipping to save space and time)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on the
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded upon
what
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
has been recorded.
***YOUR beliefs are founded upon what has been recorded. Please don't
speak for all Christians. I was'nt there...which is why I don't make
statements of "fact" until I can prove.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in
God.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but
rather
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it
is
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
based
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek
to
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The
Christian
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we
humans
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
do a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the
truths
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of God.
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of Him,
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and new
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired and,
without error i.e., inerrant.
****Hmmm..well I read those passages and don't see anything that refers to
what you have just wrote.
Matt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, the he which
made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall
cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?
Authorized King James version
I do believe that you have your passages mixed up.
Thanks for posting the above verses. No, those are the passages I referred
to. In the first passage, please notice that Jesus is referring to the
fifth Commandment. Please notice that Jesus refers to it as, "the
Commandment of God" and NOT the writings of men. In the second passage, the
****that does not mean that he believed it to be the Commandment of God at
all...he was speaking from their perspective I believe.
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that the Son
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where? the
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here again, Jesus
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that he
even necessarily believes in it.
Post by Mike Horyn
Did you know that the New Testament refers to the Old Testament more
than1,600 times?
***and? I never once said that I don't read the Bible or believe in many
things in it. I told you already that God guides me to the truth..both in
the Old And New Testaments..as well as many other spiritual texts. That
does not mean that I A: interp as you do...or B: take everything
literally or C: take the whole bible as God breathed.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****and I am not an evangelical...but a Christian.
**snip a lot of stuff.
Post by Mike Horyn
Brenda, perhaps there is a Wiccan newsgroup that make you feel more
comfortable. But, this newsgroup has as it's moniker, "christianlife."
****I go to both Mike. I am both Wiccan and Christian..so I go to both.
I find loving folks on both newsgroups...and then some not so loving.
Post by Mike Horyn
But, how would you feel, if I entered your Wiccan newsgroup and began
posting Bible verses there?
****I don't post Wiccan "verses" here..so what is your point?
But, you do post a lot of anti - christian things and Wiccan theologies
(Taylor).
*****No I don't. I post Christian things. Just not what YOU consider to be
Christian. However there are many more here than evangelicals. Taylor was
an Orthodox Christian....he was not Wiccan. I simply posted what HE had to
say on the subject of one faith insulting and lieing about another faith.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
But, we're not in the Wiccan newsgroup, Brenda. This is a "Christian"
newsgroup. If you feel annoyed, then post your heresies somewhere more
fitting.
***I am posting as a Christian. I don't speak for other Wiccans when I
post here.
If you don't wish to be annoyed by other Christians..perhaps you should
post to bible newsgroups. I don't go to them.
One who claims to be led of Christ cannot also be a Wiccan. "No servant can
serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or
else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Lu 16:13).
Friendship with the world is enmity with God (James 4:4)
****Sorry ...but you are in error. Where is the other master Mike? I don't
see another...I see only God. You first have to prove that I serve another
master.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
In all that "it" commands. Signs of real submission there, Bren.
****it is not an insult. It never was. God does not need genitals.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
It is an evil thing to serve other gods, Brenda.
*******all Gods are ONE GOD. I don't serve any other Gods
Mike..because
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
there are no other Gods.
Post by Mike Horyn
"And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and
served
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Baalim:" (Jg 2:11)
*****I'm not a child of Israel.
Me neither. However, notice that serving the wrong gods was (and still
is)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
sin.
*****There is no other God Mike..so how can someone serve another?
If you truly believed this Brenda, you would forsake Wiccan as serve the
True God as He has Commanded. According to His Word.
****it is because I follow God that I follow Wicca and all the God wisdom
in many other faiths..including Christianity....which is based on more
than a book. I carry Christ with me wherever I go. If I was without a
book..or if said book burned in a fire...I would still have Christ with
me..for Christ is not based on extraneous things but is with one always.

I take God...for my God...not a Book.
Post by Mike Horyn
Mike
Blessings of Gods light,

Bren.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Horyn
2004-02-29 21:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
(Lot's of snipping to save space and time)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on the
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded upon
what
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
has been recorded.
***YOUR beliefs are founded upon what has been recorded. Please don't
speak for all Christians. I was'nt there...which is why I don't make
statements of "fact" until I can prove.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith in
God.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but
rather
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as it
is
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
based
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would find no
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you seek
to
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The
Christian
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we
humans
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
do a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the
truths
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of God.
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of Him,
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and new
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired and,
without error i.e., inerrant.
****Hmmm..well I read those passages and don't see anything that refers to
what you have just wrote.
Matt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, the he which
made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall
cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?
Authorized King James version
I do believe that you have your passages mixed up.
Thanks for posting the above verses. No, those are the passages I referred
to. In the first passage, please notice that Jesus is referring to the
fifth Commandment. Please notice that Jesus refers to it as, "the
Commandment of God" and NOT the writings of men. In the second passage, the
****that does not mean that he believed it to be the Commandment of God at
all...he was speaking from their perspective I believe.
Are you here suggesting that Jesus believed the Hebrew Scriptures (what we
know as the Old Testament) were not true? In order for you to believe this,
you must believe that Jesus was content to let othewrs believe a lie. For,
in Jesus' response, He referred to their reference as, "the commandment of
God." Pay attention, Brenda, if you can.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that the Son
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where?
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here again, Jesus
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that he
even necessarily believes in it.
What is your interpretation of it?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
But, you do post a lot of anti - christian things and Wiccan theologies
(Taylor).
*****No I don't. I post Christian things. Just not what YOU consider to be
Christian. However there are many more here than evangelicals. Taylor was
an Orthodox Christian....he was not Wiccan. I simply posted what HE had to
say on the subject of one faith insulting and lieing about another faith.
If Taylor claimed to be both a Wiccan and a Christian as well as a Wiccan
then, he would be like you; deceived. Thus, him being not a christian, his
philosophy would be other than christian. I.e., NOT christian. As is
yours.

Brenda, I'm sure that my response to you seems harse but, I mean it only to
be to the point. You are not a child of God. You are not saved. It is
impossible for you to believe the things that you have been saving and be
saved. What's worse, your belief system effectively prevents you from
seeing the error of your ways. Thus, you appear to have been forsaken of
God. While no one can be certain of the eternal destiny of another on this
side of eternity, Brenda, I urge you to reconsider. Something is very wrong
with your belief system. Please, reconsider. Wiccan has no part in
Christianity. Only Jesus; He is sufficient enough for His people.

Please reconsider.


Mike
:::vera:::
2004-02-29 21:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
(Lot's of snipping to save space and time)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded
upon
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
what
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
has been recorded.
***YOUR beliefs are founded upon what has been recorded. Please don't
speak for all Christians. I was'nt there...which is why I don't make
statements of "fact" until I can prove.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith
in
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
God.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but
rather
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as
it
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
is
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
based
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would
find no
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The
Christian
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we
humans
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
do a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the
truths
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of
God.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of
Him,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and
new
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired
and,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
without error i.e., inerrant.
****Hmmm..well I read those passages and don't see anything that
refers to
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
what you have just wrote.
Matt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your
tradition.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, the he
which
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and
shall
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?
Authorized King James version
I do believe that you have your passages mixed up.
Thanks for posting the above verses. No, those are the passages I
referred
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to. In the first passage, please notice that Jesus is referring to the
fifth Commandment. Please notice that Jesus refers to it as, "the
Commandment of God" and NOT the writings of men. In the second passage,
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****that does not mean that he believed it to be the Commandment of God at
all...he was speaking from their perspective I believe.
Are you here suggesting that Jesus believed the Hebrew Scriptures (what we
know as the Old Testament) were not true? In order for you to believe this,
you must believe that Jesus was content to let othewrs believe a lie. For,
in Jesus' response, He referred to their reference as, "the commandment of
God." Pay attention, Brenda, if you can.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that the
Son
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where?
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here again,
Jesus
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that he
even necessarily believes in it.
What is your interpretation of it?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
But, you do post a lot of anti - christian things and Wiccan theologies
(Taylor).
*****No I don't. I post Christian things. Just not what YOU consider to be
Christian. However there are many more here than evangelicals. Taylor was
an Orthodox Christian....he was not Wiccan. I simply posted what HE had to
say on the subject of one faith insulting and lieing about another faith.
If Taylor claimed to be both a Wiccan and a Christian as well as a Wiccan
then, he would be like you; deceived. Thus, him being not a christian, his
philosophy would be other than christian. I.e., NOT christian. As is
yours.
Brenda, I'm sure that my response to you seems harse but, I mean it only to
be to the point. You are not a child of God. You are not saved. It is
impossible for you to believe the things that you have been saving and be
saved. What's worse, your belief system effectively prevents you from
seeing the error of your ways. Thus, you appear to have been forsaken of
God. While no one can be certain of the eternal destiny of another on this
side of eternity, Brenda, I urge you to reconsider. Something is very wrong
with your belief system. Please, reconsider. Wiccan has no part in
Christianity. Only Jesus; He is sufficient enough for His people.
Please reconsider.
Mike
I second this, Brenda, with all my love to you.

Please listen to Mike if not to me.

Love you,

Vera
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-29 22:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by :::vera:::
I second this, Brenda, with all my love to you.
***thankyou for your love dear vera, I second what I wrote to him...to
you.
Post by :::vera:::
Please listen to Mike if not to me.
**oh but I do listen.
Post by :::vera:::
Love you,
**love you back!
Post by :::vera:::
Vera
Bren.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brenda G. Kent
2004-02-29 22:37:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Mike Horyn wrote:


Hey Mikey how ya doing?
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
(Lot's of snipping to save space and time)
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
No Brenda but, neither were you. Christian doctrine is not based on
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
unwritten encounters of Christ. Rather, our beliefs are founded
upon
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
what
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
has been recorded.
***YOUR beliefs are founded upon what has been recorded. Please don't
speak for all Christians. I was'nt there...which is why I don't make
statements of "fact" until I can prove.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Faith is the beginning of a new spiritual life, Brenda. Faith
in
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
God.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Those who have real faith, do not seek to justify themselves but
rather
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to honor and please the one their faith is in. Christianity, as
it
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
is
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
based
Post by Brenda G. Kent
***if they did not seek to justify themselves..then they would
find no
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
need to argue with others at all. You respond...which means you
seek
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
justify yourself.
Post by Mike Horyn
upon the words of God as faithfully recorded in the Bible. The
Christian
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
seeks to please God by obedience to Him in every way. Sadly, we
humans
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
do a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
poor job of pleasing God. We sin. However, this not change the
truths
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
contained in the word of God.
***please prove that it is Gods words recorded in the Bible.
Well, Jesus thought the Old Testament Scriptures to be the words of
God.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Consider, Matt 15:6; 19:4 - 5) And, you claim to be a follower of
Him,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
don't you? Well, followers of Jesus affirm that both the old and
new
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Testaments of the Scriptures are authoritative, verbally inspired
and,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
without error i.e., inerrant.
****Hmmm..well I read those passages and don't see anything that
refers to
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
what you have just wrote.
Matt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your
tradition.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
19:4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, the he
which
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and
shall
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh?
Authorized King James version
I do believe that you have your passages mixed up.
Thanks for posting the above verses. No, those are the passages I
referred
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to. In the first passage, please notice that Jesus is referring to the
fifth Commandment. Please notice that Jesus refers to it as, "the
Commandment of God" and NOT the writings of men. In the second passage,
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****that does not mean that he believed it to be the Commandment of God at
all...he was speaking from their perspective I believe.
Are you here suggesting that Jesus believed the Hebrew Scriptures (what we
know as the Old Testament) were not true? In order for you to believe this,
you must believe that Jesus was content to let othewrs believe a lie. For,
in Jesus' response, He referred to their reference as, "the commandment of
God." Pay attention, Brenda, if you can.
**Not at all. What I am saying is that your interp of that passage does
not necessarily mean that it is meant that way. Yes he did refer to THEIR
reference as, "the commandment of God". That does not mean that he
believed that it was so. As for the last line...no need to be snotty.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that the
Son
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where?
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here again,
Jesus
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that he
even necessarily believes in it.
What is your interpretation of it?
****Do you want Mine or Gods? I would find it hard to find mine anymore as
I am trying to live by my inner Christ.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
But, you do post a lot of anti - christian things and Wiccan theologies
(Taylor).
*****No I don't. I post Christian things. Just not what YOU consider to be
Christian. However there are many more here than evangelicals. Taylor was
an Orthodox Christian....he was not Wiccan. I simply posted what HE had to
say on the subject of one faith insulting and lieing about another faith.
If Taylor claimed to be both a Wiccan and a Christian as well as a Wiccan
then, he would be like you; deceived. Thus, him being not a christian, his
philosophy would be other than christian. I.e., NOT christian. As is
yours.
***Taylor did not claim to be Wiccan....did you not read it before you
jumped to conclusions? no wonder we have a communication problem if you
are not paying attention. Taylor claimed that he was not Wiccan..but that
he was Orthodox Christian.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Brenda, I'm sure that my response to you seems harse but, I mean it only to
be to the point. You are not a child of God. You are not saved. It is
impossible for you to believe the things that you have been saving and be
saved. What's worse, your belief system effectively prevents you from
seeing the error of your ways. Thus, you appear to have been forsaken of
God. While no one can be certain of the eternal destiny of another on this
side of eternity, Brenda, I urge you to reconsider. Something is very wrong
with your belief system. Please, reconsider. Wiccan has no part in
Christianity. Only Jesus; He is sufficient enough for His people.
****your response is just another opinion to me. I take Gods over anyones
actually. Wicca is very filled with connecting to ones higher self and in
my understanding..that is the Christ.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Please reconsider.
***if God told me to ..I would.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Mike
Blessings of Gods love,
Bren.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Horyn
2004-03-01 00:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Hey Mikey how ya doing?
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
(Lot's of snipping to save space and time)
[much snippage]
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Thanks for posting the above verses. No, those are the passages I
referred
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
to. In the first passage, please notice that Jesus is referring to the
fifth Commandment. Please notice that Jesus refers to it as, "the
Commandment of God" and NOT the writings of men. In the second passage,
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****that does not mean that he believed it to be the Commandment of God at
all...he was speaking from their perspective I believe.
Are you here suggesting that Jesus believed the Hebrew Scriptures (what we
know as the Old Testament) were not true? In order for you to believe this,
you must believe that Jesus was content to let othewrs believe a lie.
For,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
in Jesus' response, He referred to their reference as, "the commandment of
God." Pay attention, Brenda, if you can.
**Not at all. What I am saying is that your interp of that passage does
not necessarily mean that it is meant that way. Yes he did refer to THEIR
reference as, "the commandment of God". That does not mean that he
believed that it was so. As for the last line...no need to be snotty.
I'll try and break this down for you. Jesus is God in human form. If God
acknowledges that a particular passage IS "the Commandment of God" then, it
most certainly is the commandment of God. For in Him is truth. What your
suggesting is that Jesus was being coy. On the contrary, Jesus' response
specifically affirms that the Commandment to Honor your father and your
Mother is a valid commandment of God. Listen:

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress THE
COMMANDMENT OF GOD by your tradition? FOR GOD COMMANDED, saying, Honour thy
father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the
death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a
gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his
father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of
God of none effect by your tradition." (Mt 15:3-6)

And, I wasn't being "snotty" I was serious.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that the
Son
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where?
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here again,
Jesus
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that he
even necessarily believes in it.
What is your interpretation of it?
****Do you want Mine or Gods? I would find it hard to find mine anymore as
I am trying to live by my inner Christ.
Ummm, I did ask for "your" interpretation.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Brenda, I'm sure that my response to you seems harse but, I mean it only to
be to the point. You are not a child of God. You are not saved. It is
impossible for you to believe the things that you have been saving and be
saved. What's worse, your belief system effectively prevents you from
seeing the error of your ways. Thus, you appear to have been forsaken of
God. While no one can be certain of the eternal destiny of another on this
side of eternity, Brenda, I urge you to reconsider. Something is very wrong
with your belief system. Please, reconsider. Wiccan has no part in
Christianity. Only Jesus; He is sufficient enough for His people.
****your response is just another opinion to me. I take Gods over anyones
actually. Wicca is very filled with connecting to ones higher self and in
my understanding..that is the Christ.
Post by Mike Horyn
Please reconsider.
***if God told me to ..I would.
Brenda G. Kent
2004-03-01 03:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Are you here suggesting that Jesus believed the Hebrew Scriptures (what
we
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
know as the Old Testament) were not true? In order for you to believe
this,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
you must believe that Jesus was content to let othewrs believe a lie.
For,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
in Jesus' response, He referred to their reference as, "the commandment
of
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
God." Pay attention, Brenda, if you can.
**Not at all. What I am saying is that your interp of that passage does
not necessarily mean that it is meant that way. Yes he did refer to THEIR
reference as, "the commandment of God". That does not mean that he
believed that it was so. As for the last line...no need to be snotty.
I'll try and break this down for you. Jesus is God in human form. If God
****so your opinion goes..yes?
Post by Mike Horyn
acknowledges that a particular passage IS "the Commandment of God" then, it
most certainly is the commandment of God. For in Him is truth. What your
suggesting is that Jesus was being coy. On the contrary, Jesus' response
specifically affirms that the Commandment to Honor your father and your
****He was simply talking to others about their beliefs.
Post by Mike Horyn
"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress THE
COMMANDMENT OF GOD by your tradition? FOR GOD COMMANDED, saying, Honour thy
father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the
death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a
gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his
father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of
God of none effect by your tradition." (Mt 15:3-6)
****God commanded in that tradition. And God was asking why they did not
pay attention to the writings in their own tradition.
Post by Mike Horyn
And, I wasn't being "snotty" I was serious.
***to say "Pay attention if you can"
is snotty...especially when the person saying it does not pay attention
themselves. Take the log out of your own eye.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Son
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where?
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here
again,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Jesus
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that
he
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
even necessarily believes in it.
What is your interpretation of it?
****Do you want Mine or Gods? I would find it hard to find mine anymore as
I am trying to live by my inner Christ.
Ummm, I did ask for "your" interpretation.
****can't find mine anymore..only Gods. To speak from the ego would be
going backwards to me. I am trying daily to leave my ego behind..so
interpreting the Bible from the "I" is not going to happen.

Blessings,
Bren.
Mike Horyn
2004-03-01 10:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Are you here suggesting that Jesus believed the Hebrew Scriptures (what
we
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
know as the Old Testament) were not true? In order for you to believe
this,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
you must believe that Jesus was content to let othewrs believe a lie.
For,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
in Jesus' response, He referred to their reference as, "the commandment
of
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
God." Pay attention, Brenda, if you can.
**Not at all. What I am saying is that your interp of that passage does
not necessarily mean that it is meant that way. Yes he did refer to THEIR
reference as, "the commandment of God". That does not mean that he
believed that it was so. As for the last line...no need to be snotty.
I'll try and break this down for you. Jesus is God in human form. If God
****so your opinion goes..yes?
The conviction that Jesus was God in human form is a foundational belief of
Christianity. A Wiccan may deny the diety of Christ but, not a Christian.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
acknowledges that a particular passage IS "the Commandment of God" then, it
most certainly is the commandment of God. For in Him is truth. What your
suggesting is that Jesus was being coy. On the contrary, Jesus' response
specifically affirms that the Commandment to Honor your father and your
****He was simply talking to others about their beliefs.
Sort of like you and I? With imperfect answers and ambiguities? The Bible
says that even the thought of foolishness is sin (Prov 24:9). As God, Jesus
would have embraced Scriptures like this one: "I hate vain thoughts: but thy
law do I love." (Ps 119:113). Jesus taught, "For out of the heart proceed
evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness,
blasphemies" (Mt 15:19). However, as He was without sin, none of these
evils were found in His heart. No evil thoughts; thus no evil words.
Thuerefore, no false words.

Whenever Jesus was speaking, He was speaking Truth.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress THE
COMMANDMENT OF GOD by your tradition? FOR GOD COMMANDED, saying, Honour thy
father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the
death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a
gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his
father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of
God of none effect by your tradition." (Mt 15:3-6)
****God commanded in that tradition. And God was asking why they did not
pay attention to the writings in their own tradition.
There is so much ambiguity in what you write, Brenda. I can never be
certain exactly what you are trying to communicate.

For this reason, I dread asking you for a more detailed explanation as I
would certainly be left to decipher more obscurities. Take for example your
last response (above). What "tradition" are you speaking of? The Pharisaic
tradition? If so, I don't see God commanding the Pharisees "in their
tradition." I see God setting forth His Law and, imperfect men screwing
them up. The resulting practices (traditions) are corruptions of God's Law,
at best. And, God does not command corruption.
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
And, I wasn't being "snotty" I was serious.
***to say "Pay attention if you can"
is snotty...especially when the person saying it does not pay attention
themselves. Take the log out of your own eye.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
reference is more subtle however, a careful reader will observe that
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Son
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
of God refers to what was written: "Have you not read?" Read where?
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
passage Jesus herein refers to is found in Genesis 2:24. Here
again,
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Jesus
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
speaks of the Scriptures as trustworthy, reliable and true.
****Yes? He uses the books that others adhere to to instruct them
Again..this does not mean that he takes YOUR interp...of it...or that
he
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
even necessarily believes in it.
What is your interpretation of it?
****Do you want Mine or Gods? I would find it hard to find mine anymore as
I am trying to live by my inner Christ.
Ummm, I did ask for "your" interpretation.
****can't find mine anymore..only Gods. To speak from the ego would be
going backwards to me. I am trying daily to leave my ego behind..so
interpreting the Bible from the "I" is not going to happen.
If your piousness isn't based upon your own ego, then are you here
suggesting to be speaking for God?

Your just a Troll, aren't you?

Mike
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Blessings,
Bren.
Brenda G. Kent
2004-03-01 17:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
I'll try and break this down for you. Jesus is God in human form. If
God
Post by Brenda G. Kent
****so your opinion goes..yes?
The conviction that Jesus was God in human form is a foundational belief of
Christianity. A Wiccan may deny the diety of Christ but, not a Christian.
***I don't deny the Deity of Christ. Jesus is God.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
acknowledges that a particular passage IS "the Commandment of God" then,
it
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
most certainly is the commandment of God. For in Him is truth. What
your
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
suggesting is that Jesus was being coy. On the contrary, Jesus'
response
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
specifically affirms that the Commandment to Honor your father and your
****He was simply talking to others about their beliefs.
Sort of like you and I? With imperfect answers and ambiguities? The Bible
says that even the thought of foolishness is sin (Prov 24:9). As God, Jesus
would have embraced Scriptures like this one: "I hate vain thoughts: but thy
law do I love." (Ps 119:113). Jesus taught, "For out of the heart proceed
evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness,
blasphemies" (Mt 15:19). However, as He was without sin, none of these
evils were found in His heart. No evil thoughts; thus no evil words.
Thuerefore, no false words.
****WEll you don't know what Jesus would embrace as you are not
enlightened to your Christ yet....you can only guess really.
I can't squeeze God into the Bible...the Bible has to accomodate Christ.
Post by Mike Horyn
Whenever Jesus was speaking, He was speaking Truth.
***I believe that Jesus spoke truth always....however that does not mean
that the Bible recorded it all...or even correctly all the time.
Post by Mike Horyn
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress THE
COMMANDMENT OF GOD by your tradition? FOR GOD COMMANDED, saying, Honour
thy
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die
the
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It
is a
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his
father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the
commandment of
Post by Brenda G. Kent
Post by Mike Horyn
God of none effect by your tradition." (Mt 15:3-6)
****God commanded in that tradition. And God was asking why they did not
pay attention to the writings in their own tradition.
There is so much ambiguity in what you write, Brenda. I can never be
certain exactly what you are trying to communicate.
***You will eventually. There is much paradox and koan in what Jesus has
said and how God comes through. There is a point to this....to study and
learn because you WANT to...and thus keeping the learning strongly within
you. To have it just simply be thrust out there ALWAYS....would mean that
you just swallow it..and don't really understand it. Like being given the
answers to a test from the back of a book...you don't hold them close to
your spirit....they are soon forgotten. Whereas if you have to work at the
answers..they stay within you...you actually have worked for it. For
learning about God is a process of action...."seek and ye shall find"
.it does not speak about "sit and have it handed to you."

Do you think so quickly that I am on "some other side" that you come to my
words with an attitude of contrariness? instead of trying to understand
what I say first and give me the benefit of the doubt? We both love and
honour Christ. You do in your way..and I in mine. I don't ask that you
change your beliefs..nor will I change mine but that you realize that not
all Christians see things as you do. We all look through different
eyes..and ears...and those who have ears to hear it...will.
Post by Mike Horyn
For this reason, I dread asking you for a more detailed explanation as I
would certainly be left to decipher more obscurities. Take for example your
last response (above). What "tradition" are you speaking of? The Pharisaic
tradition? If so, I don't see God commanding the Pharisees "in their
tradition." I see God setting forth His Law and, imperfect men screwing
them up. The resulting practices (traditions) are corruptions of God's Law,
at best. And, God does not command corruption.
*****by tradition I mean that people of the book religions have thier own
collective interps of passages etc. This is why we have so many different
denominations out there. I believe that God was speaking to these people
on thier own laws and how they adhere to or understand them....to get a
point across. When Jesus says "it is written"....etc. why should this
necessarily mean that Jesus believes in what is written? If I see a book
on satanism and it says "it is written"...that does not mean I believe
it.
I see God setting forth its law and many human beings screwing them up. I
see it in many texts and ways. NOw does this make me believing I am some
sort of expert in all this? NO...I am talking from my own opinion of what
I interpret God saying to me. They
may be right..they may be wrong.....but it is my interp of Gods guidance.
I see some mistakes in the books...but more mistakes in the
interpretations of said books. If you approach a book written with much
analogy and koan and parable...as literal...then you are going to have
much confusion...and God is not the God of confusion...it is us. If you
approach it understanding the koan and parable...then you will unlock the
secrets...the meanings between the lines...that God intended. I understand
the Bible much more by using God to guide me in reading it as it was meant
to be read...as parable...as koan.
Adam and Eve were not real people...they were a story of creation...of man
and woman...her being born from a rib of his....not in truth..but to show
that she is part of him...they are one. This is one of the many lessons in
the Old Testament..and then there is the New Testament with its own
stories and lessons.


This is how God guides me. Nothing will change my faith in God for it is
stronger than anything I can think of...only love is stronger.


**snip
Post by Mike Horyn
If your piousness isn't based upon your own ego, then are you here
suggesting to be speaking for God?
****ego is something I am working to leave. I am trying my best to speak
God....but I am not there yet. When I get to the enlightened state of
Christ ..I will then be speaking the "I AM".
Post by Mike Horyn
Your just a Troll, aren't you?
***not at all. A Troll would not waste so much time trying to explain. A
troll would not be making friends here and showing others love. Try not to
get frustrated with something you don't understand and then lashing out at
others. You seem to get upset because you don't understand me so with to
label me a troll so that you can write me off.

I reiterate once more...if you don't feel like speaking to me then please
hop over my posts. Don't insult because you don't understand.
Post by Mike Horyn
Mike
With much Christian love,

Bren.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...the voice of the Great Spirit is heard in the twittering of
birds,
the sweet breathing of flowers. If this is Paganism, then at
present,
at least, I am a Pagan"
- Gertrude Simmons Bonnin [Zikala-Sa], Dakota Sioux

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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